bank lending

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nigelkembrey nigelkembrey
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Re: bank lending

Thinking about Peters reply, sorry to Fifer I could have worded my reply better, although comments about class war and saying how maggie destroyed the industry when it was the militants who did that , and how she put the working men in their place,when thats not true either she broke the back of the militants and regained control of the nation, then cut taxes and gave everybody freedom to look after themselves.
Britain was sick man of europe in the 70,s crippled by strikes, the unions were in power, it was not a democracy.
The car industry is a good example. France, Germany, Italy still have their national car companies.
Britain does not.
Britains car industry was nationalised, hijacked by unions , crippled by strikes and work to rules, produced half the cars per head of our european neighbours, lost huge amounts of money , and as a result there was no money to invest in new technology ( which the unions wouldnt allow anyway) or in new models. This was the same story in all our nationalised industries. Thatcher just shot the crippled horses and put them out of their misery, whilst breaking the back of the militants who ran the show. Even the Labour party themselves now accept this.
Peter. C Peter. C
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Nigel,

You are right the Union's were holding the country to ransom and Maggie Thatcher (Old Crone) put them in their place, however it's a fact that Maggie was going to deregulate the banks just before she lost power, and her blueprints were left in 10 Downing St and when Tony Blair picked her blueprints up on deregulation and implemented them......
So in effect she took the power from the Union's to prevent them from holding the country to ransom, then she and Blair between them deregulated the Banks and gave the power they took from the Union's to the bankers because it is the bankers who are holding the power to hold the country to ransom.

I have to say Nigel, you still play a blame game, it was not only the Union's to blame for what went on in the 70's it was also big businesses and a stubborn government who allowed out manufacturing industry to be deliberately run down to make them rip for to be sold off cheaply to private investors.

The Union's rightly fought to save their industries and job's.

As I said in my last post if back in the 70's there was "Cooperation" between governments, industry leaders and the Union's there would have be next to no industrial strike action, however it was inevitable there was going to be a Clash between the Union's and government and industrial leaders because as I said government and industrial leaders were running our industrial and manufacturing into the ground to sell them off cheaply to private investor's.

It's is very wrong to for you, government to point the finger towards the Union's for what went on back then.

When anyone points one finger in blame, they should remember there are three fingers pointing back towards themselves.
Peter C
nigelkembrey nigelkembrey
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Peter, I am sorry but the 1970,s was not this utopian socialist dream of the people. The labour party and the unions were one and the same. The country was a closed shop, if you were in the labour party and a union with a job in the governemnt or nationalised sector you were alright jack, otherwise you were screwed.
There was no social justice.

I remember my childhood well. My father was a farmworker, that meant real hard work for the lowest wages that existed. I lived in abject poverty. We had a coal fire to heat the entire house. I cannot begin to tell you the hardship my parents suffered to give me a good education so i would not suffer the same fate.
I do remember the strikes, the powercuts, the food shortages, the rail strikes. How Arthur Scargill could close the entire country by cutting off the nations coal supplies.
I remember the anger of my parents towards the unions. The injustice. Living in abject poverty, my parents paying the highest taxes in europe to fund those state industries and watch scargills thugs on the picket line.
Please do not ever talk to me about poverty and injustice or about how those greedy selfish unions didnt wrecked the nation because I have seen it all, and Maggie Thatcher did more for my mum and dad than any Labour governemnt. The Labour party is the poverty party, you vote for them and you are guaranteed poverty, the suffering the poor in this country will have to endure in the coming years because of the last 15 years of reckless governemnt and immigration is something you have yet to realise.
nigelkembrey nigelkembrey
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And also, the highest business taxes in europe meant the highest unemployment in europe and no chance of finding work unless you were willing to sell your soul and join a closed shop. There was no business, no self employment , no chance. It was a time of depression and without hope.
Maggie Thatcher had her faults but she dragged us kicking and screaming into the modern world and for that I admire her.
The lilly livered Tories today are socialists in disguise and useless. The Labour party are the same bunch of thugs as they always were , except they dont beat people up on picket lines these days, they smear and destroy anybody who tells the truth, remember how they murdered Dr kelly,  or try to destroy companies who stands in the way like Murdoch, the Mirror group got off scot free and he took the fall.
Peter. C Peter. C
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In reply to this post by nigelkembrey
Nigel,

You lay claim to haven lived in abject poverty like as if you and your family were the only ones to live through difficult times. I was one off nine children, my parents like most families after the war were encourage to have big families to get the population back up after the killings fields in the world wars......

It was my parents and their parents generations who sacrificed so much for this country, they were promised a land fit for hero's only to come back home to be forced down the pits to dig coal, the conditions they were made to work in was shocking to say the least. Their safety and even their lives were put at risk for the sake of "Profits" if it were not through these generations standing up to their industrial masters to demand better conditions and their safety and lives to be protected, their would have been many many more lives sacrificed in the name of profits, would their industrial masters changed conditions without them striking.....

No they wouldn't because profits was all they were concerned with.

My father worked as a blacksmith, he had type 1 diabets and suffered horrendously with this condition because in his years there was little understanding of the illness, he suffered with both legs being amputated but still went out to work to support his family until he eventually die, ironically he died at work supporting his family.

However, no matter how hard he worked like every other working person back then, their wages were kept at a pittance and most struggled to support their families. If it were not for those generations fighting for some rights, you, myself and every other working class person would still be living as our forefathers were.

My up bringing was in "Poverty" real "Poverty" you make claim to have had one coal fire, we were the same but there was never any coal to burn, unless we went down the beach and collected coal that was washed up on the beaches, we all had hand me down clothes, we had to get our clothes at Jumble Sales, we had outside toilets, no hot water and bathed in a tin bath by a fire that burnt would collect from woodland or coal washed up on the beach, we had to go to school with one pair off shoes that had to last a year, when holes appeared in our shoes we went to school with wet feet.

How very dare you talk like you were the only family who lived in poverty.
How very dare you attack the people who stood up and gained some concessions from greedy employers,
How very dare you think your parents were the only parents who struggled to support their families.
You point the finger at union's, I point the finger at greedy profit margins that forced the working classes to take strike action.

Rant over back to being rational........

Like I said, you want to point the finger at one section of society back in the 70's. I see our forefathers who fought against industrial masters and government to gain better conditions and safety at work as a good thing, you see our forefathers are troublesome and interfering with profit margins. Yes the Union's grow to big for their boots and pushed to far but by then it was class warfare were it was rich against poor and madness took over, and the Union's needed reigned in and Thatcher (Old Crone) did just that but don't ever attack our forefathers who fought for the good and betterment of the working classes.

I will reiterate what I said before,

The rich would not have the wealth they have without the "Grunts" doing the work on the shop floor.

The Rich and working classes are "Interdependent" on each other and this is why the "Rich" need to reign in their "Greed" and share the wealth and work together for the betterment of the company.

This would prevent any need for the working classes to "Strike" but if the rich continue to keep the wealth to themselves there will always be "Confrontation" between the Rich Upper Class and Working Class.

This is why the John Lewis model should be enforced in very business.
Peter C
David A David A
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As one born into privilege, but descended into difficult circumstances, I strongly empathise with your very moving post, Peter - we may have been poles apart, once, but we still have John Lewis in common! - I'm a strong believer in benevolent dictators, like Hadrian, who at least got things done, and was a man of the people, with a conscience when he went wrong!
David A
fiferalfa2 fiferalfa2
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In reply to this post by nigelkembrey
Nigel
         i would not like a return to the 70s i would like to see union leaders show a bit of common sense as they do not always try the best for their members it bodes better for them the better the deal they get why dont they cut their salaries and perks just to willing and help the country
nigelkembrey nigelkembrey
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Peter, I actually agree with much of what you write especially the John Lewis model of which I believe I have also advocated.
But please do not preach me to me about the unions in the 70,s, they destroyed this country with their greed , it was a closed shop. There was no negotiation, and there was no negotiation because there power together with labour was absolute. Their arrogance did for them, they didnt believe any politician would defeat them, but Thatcher did.
Thatcher broke them and thank god she did, this country was on its knees, ridiculed in the rest of the world and dieing.
Labour is no friend of the poor, they claim to be the party of the poor, but their inherent interest is keeping people poor because when people have money they switch allegiance.
Labour is the party of poverty , vote labour and you vote for poverty.
The fact that both you and I lived in such poverty should in itself be evidence that life today is so much better , and it wasnt Labour that turned it around, it was Thatcher. The standards of living rose during theat Tory governemnt between 1979 and 1997. My families life changed much for the better during that period and it was nothing to do with unions and strikes.
Today the tories and labour have similar policies, one party is a party of thugs,the other a party of politicians paralysed with fear of leaving the centre ground.
I have no doubt nobody in the closed shops ever worked the way my father worked. He was written off and left in poverty because he refused to join the closed shop and because there were no other options because the country was a trainwreck left by the unions.
I say Margaret Thatcher was  national hero who saved us from tyranny and jackboot union militants and made all our lives better.
Whether you like it or not I suspect you also saw your standard of living rise sharply during her governemnt, and you have more or less confirmed that to me.
Today we dont have strong politicians only weak cynical liars and thats part of the problem.
Peter. C Peter. C
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In reply to this post by David A
David A,

Thank you for your kind comments and coming from a person who was born into privilege it means so much more.

I know there are and will be millions more unfortunate people with tales just like mean and worse.
I felt compelled to speak up after Nigel's post about living in "Abject Poverty" and how his parent made sacrifice for him, which is admirable, however.....

I think where Nigel and I differ is he and his parents seen the Union's as troublesome and interfering, which off course he would be correct in saying that but as I have been saying about years gone by and even to the present day.......
Governments, industrial leaders and the Union's need to work together for the common good the top executives right down to the cleaners and off course the top people need and should be rewarded more than the cleaners but I say within reason, I suspect from some other posts from Nigel that he would advocate the same.

If governments industrial leaders work with the employees in the manner I mentioned the John Lewis model there most likely be no need for union's and no strike actions, because everyone would be working in the same direction, the common good of the company.

I see my father's and his father's generation as the people who sacrificed more than any generations, they fought two world wars, they were promised a land fit for hero's only to come home to be sent down very deep black holes with a pick & shovel and all the health issues they suffered later in life, they were encourage to have large families and we're betrayed by the Rich Affluent people.

This is only part of why I take accepting when people play the "Blame Game" and point the finger at the one party involved at the time namely..... The Union's

I have said it before the Union's got a little above their station and steps had to be taken to prevent the country being held to ransom but then government leaders between Thatcher (Old Crone) and Blair (War Criminal) they handed the self same power they took from the Union's to the Bankers who have the power to hold the country and indeed the every country the world over.


Peter C
Peter. C Peter. C
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In reply to this post by nigelkembrey
Nigel,

I was not lecturing you on anything, you my friend write your comments and I write my own, you have had your experience in life as had your parents, I had my experiences in life as had my parents.

It appears we both were brought up through hard times to a greater or lesser degree of poverty.

You my friend are entitled to see life through your own eye and you can blame the Union's for all the ills in this country, this is your right!

I have the same right! to speak as I seen life through my own eyes and I unlike yourself Nigel you want to pin blame on one group the union's, where I see government, industrial leaders and the Union's to blame because they all worked against each other and cause conflict that brought about the Strikes rather than work for the common good.
Peter C
nigelkembrey nigelkembrey
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Peter, I know very well the role unions played in bringing up workers standards for workers and how important they were , but that was very different to what I talked about in the 1970,s. They became completely out of control and power crazed and lost all sense of reality. The unions of the 1970,s left my family in poverty without hope. Thatcher gave my family hope and a chance and that was my point.
I agree with you about how workers should be treated, i agree with you about the bankers , I agree with you about almost everything except the dark ages of the 1970,s.
I dont remember before that because I wasnt born, I was from a poor background, but Unions never did anything for me , just kept me poor. Thatcher was the one who helped the real poor like my parents, and she helped them by giving opportunity and cutting taxes.
I see people complaining today about employers , i was exploited but I wont be exploited again, so I take the option Thatcher  gave me and I work for myself. Nobody has to be exploited because its very easy to work for yourself.
Alan Sugar showed on the apprentice just this week how easy it is for somebody to take £150 and turn it into £900 in a couple of days. Its easier though to get a job and complain about exploitation.
We each of us now have the freedom to determine our own destinies and make our own livings ,that was the gift that Thatcher gave us.
David A David A
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In reply to this post by fiferalfa2
Here we go, fiferalfa

In the wake of the Greek election revealing that the pro-bailout ruling parties have lost their majority in the Greek parliament, alarming release from Reuters in Berlin this morning announcing that Klaus Regling, (chief of the European Financial Stability Facility incorporated in 2010 with a mandate to safeguard euro zone financial stability by providing financial assistance to euro area member states), has warned that if Greece exits the euro (which now seems likely), there will be a catastrophic knock-on effect not just for the banks, but Greece itself. He also said it would be completely out of the question that the EFSF's ESM (European Security Mechanism) would recapitalise banks directly, a venture currently being proposed by some individuals to help Spanish banks.

This, coupled with the disappointing performance on Wall Street last Friday, is having a very sobering effect on the market today, from which we are absent, because some Labour idiot decided May Day needed celebrating as well a Whitsun! Can't imagine what tomorrow may bring, to quote Socrates!
David A
Peter. C Peter. C
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In reply to this post by nigelkembrey
Nigel,

I am sure we agree on many points and have also stated clearly in agreement with you that, the Union's got to big for their boots and needed reigned in.

So in this debate, we are in agreement on everything apart from......

You want to lay "Blame" for all the ills back in the 70's on the Union's!

Where I lay blame on all parties involved, Government, Industrial Leaders and The Union's!

My reasons for blaming all parties involved is simple "It Takes Two to Tango". If all parties involved are not flexible and refuse to bend and meet somewhere in the middle then they "All" contribute towards forcing industrial actions.
In my opinion governments were just as much "Bully Boys" in their tactics as were the Union "Bully Boys".

Peter C
Peter. C Peter. C
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In reply to this post by David A
David A,

Read your post with interest, with Greece looking likely to leave the EU and now with Francois Hollande voted into power in France.......... What is your thoughts on the Euro and the possibility that the EU may implode on its self. What future is there for the EU?
Peter C
David A David A
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Peter,

The way I see it, (and many associates), is the Euro really cannot survive without a United States of Europe, and it is clear for all to see, with the overwhelming rejection of the security measures entailed, that people no longer have the stomach for this, and most, including us, now crave retaining our own National identities, particularly with the corruption and intrusion that is rife in the so-called European vision. We all have to tighten our belts now, and that means battening down the hatches and safeguarding our own national interests. Dilemma for Britain though, is how to we get back our vital resources which we have sold off to other nations, without regard to our national interest? What has happened post-Thatcher has been a national disgrace, and we the long-suffering electorate have taken it on the chin. Well, I think we can all say with certainty, that it's time for the political charade to stop, if our leaders wish to avoid a state of chaos in our country akin to Greece. So, in answer to your question, yes, I believe the demise of the Euro is coming soon, and we all need to prepare plan B pretty damn quickly, unless we are to avoid tripling unemployment. We have to accept austerity, but I argue, we the Brits need to be in charge!
David A
Peter. C Peter. C
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In reply to this post by nigelkembrey
Nigel,

You said......

"Thatcher gave my family hope and a chance and that was my point."

This is all very well from your point off view, however there are Millions who see what Thatcher did in a very very different light.

You said..........

"Thatcher was the one who helped the real poor like my parents, and she helped them by giving opportunity and cutting taxes."

Again Nigel, this is a positive for yourself in your experience, however not many off the poor would agree with their own suffering and real life experiences!

You said..........

"I see people complaining today about employers , i was exploited but I wont be exploited again, so I take the option Thatcher gave me and I work for myself. Nobody has to be exploited because its very easy to work for yourself."

Again this is in your own experience but it is utterly impractical to say that everyone can work for themselves.
There will always be a need for "Employers & Employees" and there are far to many "Employers" to ready & willing to "Exploit" their "Employees".

Are you really saying that approximately 40 million adults can be "Self Employed".


You said........

"Alan Sugar showed on the apprentice just this week how easy it is for somebody to take £150 and turn it into £900 in a couple of days."

Yes I watch the program but your example only serves to show the "Rip Off Prices" that can be charged.

For example.......

I purchase a new jacket on 24th December for £350 on the 26th December the price is slashed to £125 by the 1st January the same jacket is priced at £50 and the shopkeeper is still making a profit.

Yeah this is "Capitalism" at its very very best "Rip Off".

Finally you Said..........

"We each of us now have the freedom to determine our own destinies and make our own livings ,that was the gift that Thatcher gave us."

Wake Up Nigel ........ as I said above its impractical for everyone to be self employed.
No one can take away from you, that you had a positive experience in life but for Millions more your achievements could "Never" have been realised.

This is why you want to "Hail" Thatcher (Old Crone) and many more Millions "Hate" the Old Crone with a "Vengeance".
Peter C
Peter. C Peter. C
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In reply to this post by David A
David,

Thank you for your response, your contribution is always welcomed and your knowledge in this field is second to none.

You mentioned about "Plan B" with David Cameron's and George Osborne seemingly still determined to sticking with "Austerity" Cut! Cut! Cut! with "No" real plans to grow the economy and create jobs.

How long do you think Cameron & Clegg can remain in power, I don't think we can continue down their path for another three years.
Peter C
David A David A
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In reply to this post by Peter. C
Peter,

Did you watch the Meryl Streep portrayal? I had to be dragged kicking and screaming to watch it, but I'm very glad I did...

That says something for the "old crone"

She was always a bit mad, in my view, but she believed in putting Britain first, and anyone whom she perceived as standing in her way, including the Unions, the Argentine navy, Bobby Sands, she felt justified in crushing regardless of the strategy employed. Not surprisingly, she was not universally popular, but at least, as a grocer's daughter, she was no hypocrite to her beliefs that everyone should live according to their means without sponging on others. I admired her as Education Secretary, when she alone stood up for married women teachers' rights who were unfairly discriminated against at the time. With this woman, you always knew what to expect, and she never for once hid behind others' tails - so, "hypocrite", could never be levelled at her.
David A
Peter. C Peter. C
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David,

No I have not yet watched the Iron Lady portrayal by Meryl Streep as yet however my daughter bought me a copy but I have not got round to watch it......... I will soon

I don't dispute anything you say about Maggie Thatcher (Old Crone) and in reality she was a "Strong" leader and did what she did very very well.

However as a person born from one English & one Scottish parent brought up in Edinburgh.

My bone of contention with Dear Old Maggie is how she treat the Scottish people as "Guinea Pigs" over the introduction of her "Poll Tax" policy.

It is for this reason and this reason only that I see her as the Old Crone!
Peter C
David A David A
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In reply to this post by nigelkembrey
Response to Peter's post NOT Nigel's - don't understand what I did there!

...and she did huge damage to the Conservative cause in Scotland, as a result. I too am a Scot, proud of it, and happy to remain in the Union! Cameron is right on that one, and he needs to restore bridges there. The Scots know well enough, that with their/our banks in a parlous state, any referendum for them on independence at this time would be absolutely disastrous for the average Scot.
David A
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