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The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

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John Kelly John Kelly
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

1.
"No Scotland cannot survive as an independent nation in the way that the SNP are telling the Scottish people"

However, this is not the question, the question is.......

Can Scotland stand alone as an independent country and succeed?

Maybe! but only by increasing PAYE rates by about 15%, after first paying off its indebtedness to the remainder of the UK, and even then only for a short time untill the first serious financial crisis strikes

2.
Are you saying that the EU will not accept Scotland?
Are you saying that the BoE/Westminster will point blank refuse Scotland the use of the currency pound Sterling?

a) If the EU grant membership status to an independent Scotland, then it set a disturbing and destabilising precident for the break up of several existing member states for instance Catalunia & Galicia in Spain, The border region of the Czech Republic which is a German speaking region formerly known as the Sudetenland,and Sicily would love to be independent of Italy.

b) The UK Government would have to defy the objections of Plaid Cymru and those of most English people to the prospect of maintaining a currency union with an independent Scotland as this would carry a risk of the B of E acting as a Banker of last resort for a country that no longer contributed to the UK economy,


3.
Why is there no direct answer from Westminster or the EU making an officially clear statement saying......

No Scotland WILL NOT GET TO USE POUND STERLING CURRENCY!!
Ask David Cameron

No Scotland WILL NOT BECOME A FULL MEMBER STATE OF THE EU!!
Ask Herbert Von Romploy

4.
Do you agree that by leaving "DOUBTS" in the Scottish peoples minds they assume their "SCAREMONGERING" will force the Scottish people to vote against independence...... Why do that when a straight answer on the currency would end Alex Salmond's claim to retain the pound Sterling currency it's a Win Win reply and would encourage a No vote from the Scottish people

Are you saying that the Scottish people give a toss about the stance of the British Government?

A couple of valid reasons why Westminster wants to keep Scotland in the Union.

5.
Loss of the North Sea oilfields would mean George Osborne would never be able to reap the benefit of a windfall tax on the North Sea operators like the one introduced in the last Budget.

I have no doubt that if George Osbourne needs more money from the North Sea Oil and Gas operators that little rat will still find a way to do it.

6.
Most of the UK’s renewable energy resources like sites for wind and wave power stations are in Scotland, so the potential market for exported electricity would be out of Whitehall’s hands.

No, Peter No! the UK does not need the paltry amount of energy derived from wind power, as for wave power that is still an unknown quantity as far as energy production. Scotland would have to have a wind turbine in every back garden in Scotland to become self sufficient for 30% of the time.

7.
No economists contacted thought there was a serious risk of an independent Scotland failing to survive........ Do you agree with this or disagree if you disagree what evidence do you base your alternative views

Who is paying the economists?

8.
David Cameron signalled this week, Unionists need to move past “threats or by saying that small countries can’t make it”........ Do you agree with this or not and if not why not!!

Yes

9.
Control of North Sea oil has been a constant refrain for the SNP, but experts think it may be a mistake either to bank on oil or to assume that an independent Scotland would fail without it...... Do you agree with the point of view or not if not why not!!

No , I think Scotland would fail anyway.

10.
The latest opinion polls mean Mr Cameron may have a harder job convincing English and Welsh voters that they need Scotland, despite analysis that shows that the contribution Scotland makes to the rest of the UK has been underestimated........ Do you agree or disagree with this and if you disagree why!!

That depends on the data used by the analysts, I do think that the SNP and many Scots underestimate the size and value of the Barnett Formula.

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David A David A
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

I will summarise the Scottish question in two sentences:

Scotland cannot afford the luxury of Independence.

Britain cannot afford to allow Scotland that luxury.

Simples! As a Scot, I wish there to be no barriers or battles between us and our English, Irish and Welsh compatriots except on the playing fields!
 
While I watch the events of the past week unravel, I see the wisdom of Carney not pandering to Washington over stimulus (aka QE) - he has achieved the same by making the City an attractive centre for world business, and the pound has never been stronger as a result. Now he must take advantage of the low interest rates which will continue until the Fed ceases their drip feed of the US economy, supposedly 7 months from now barring catastrophes, after which interest rates will I imagine rise alongside GDP and GNP. In the meantime, it is beholden upon the City and Wall Street to get their acts together and root out rogue traders and their institutions who continue to conspire to give their respective cities a bad name. The byword for business must for all our sakes return to "My word is my bond". It will not be an easy road. It never is; but the rule of GB Law needs to be reasserted for the nation including the Square Mile where shields such as Diplomatic Immunity need not to be exploited for individual or institutional gain, ditto unscrupulous money lenders. Osborne and Carney have a duty to respect this.

Season's Greetings all, and may this Brave New World actually begin doing something about its preservation in 2014 to mark 100 years since the Great War, in the hope that we will finally have learnt from that monumental mistake, and start instructing our children accordingly.
David A
John Kelly John Kelly
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

This post was updated on .
A sobering thought for those considering voting yes for Scottish independence, the SNP pledge that Scotland would automatically be accepted as a member state of the EU is a lie, the Spanish Prime Minister, the Irish Prime Minister, the Croatian President, the Latvian President have all stated that Scotland cannot apply for EU membership before independence, then it must meet all the necessary membership criteria, it must adopt the Euro and accept subsidiarity to the European Court's jurisdiction and the dictates of the EU parliament and Commission.
The typical timescale for this transition is on average Eight years, that's eight years without the fiscal crutch of the Barnett formula, that's eight years of much higher personal taxation to fund childcare pensions and higher education, thats eight years of depending on diminishing Oil and Gas supplies.

As the rest of the UK reaps the benefits of cheaper shale gas energy Scotland will see sales of Scottish electricity south of theborder falling away so Scottish energy prices must rise.

The price of Alex Salmond's ego driven ambition is ruin for the Scottish people.
David A David A
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

As a fellow Scot, John, I fully agree with you, and you are painting the brightest possible scenario; the reality after a banking crash will be destitution and misery for millions of Scots, and the aftermath of the 45 will look like a vicar's tea party! Alex Salmond, I hope you and your utopian cronies are reading this, and are prepared to shoulder the responsibility for your recklessness and stupidity.
David A
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

In reply to this post by John Kelly
John K,

You said........

"the SNP pledge that Scotland would automatically be accepted as a member state of the EU is a lie"

With all due respect John but Alex Salmond has addressed this misrepresentation below is an update on the SNP position.


Some legal analysts argue that an independent Scotland would need to apply to join the EU.

The SNP had claimed that Scotland would automatically inherit EU membership, as there was no ground for expelling Scottish people who were currently EU citizens.
This position was subsequently challenged by legal experts and the President of the European Union, resulting in the SNP changing their position.

The current SNP position is to argue that Scotland would have almost automatic membership as an existing part of the EU, subject only to a majority vote in the European Council.

You said.......

Spanish Prime Minister stated that Scotland cannot apply for EU membership before independence

It was reported in The Spectator and The Independent that Spain may object to Scottish membership of the EU, but this was denied by the Spanish Government.

In 2013, Professor Dr Roland Vaubel, an adviser to Germany’s economics ministry argued in an article in the journal Economic Affairs that........

“The legal position taken by Barroso, Reding and van Rompuy has no basis in the European treaties. Nor is there a precedent in EU law. Nor does the UN Charter envisage dispositions with regard to secession........
The treaties are also consistent with automatic succession of both the seceding state and the rump state."

He argued that the EU institutions had a vested interest in centralisation and were therefore biased against separatist movements while also hoping to gain concessions from an independent Scotland in negotiations.

You said.........

"The typical timescale for this transition is on average Eight years, that's eight years without the fiscal crutch of the Barnett formula, that's eight years of much higher personal taxation to fund childcare pensions and higher education"

The Scottish Government is of the opinion that accession negotiations with the EU would be expedited and could be completed prior to their planned date of independence in March 2016....... This is an 18 month timescale to renegotiate Scotland's entry into the EU.

This timescale was described as "realistic"  by Professor James Crawford, who co-authored the UK Government's first paper on independence, while speaking on the BBC programme Good Morning Scotland. Crawford added that the process of EU accession is "[not] necessarily going to be very difficult, because Scotland complies with the Acquis now, as part of the UK"

You said........

"As the rest of the UK reaps the benefits of cheaper shale gas energy"

You don't truly believe that yourself, unless you think the power/energy companies are suddenly going to have a severe attack of social injustices and drop prices....... You know no matter how cheap shale gas energy is to produce it will be market forces that will determine the price we pay and off course the "Foreign" owners of our power/energy companies.

You/we are never going to benefit from any cheap source of energy, the market forces will see to that!

Have we benefited over the last 40 ish years while we had the north sea oil and gas flowing in, nope only ever increasing energy bills.
Peter C
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by John Kelly
Mr Cameron said he would campaign to keep the UK together, as he congratulated Mr Salmond.

He said: "I passionately believe in our United Kingdom, so I congratulate Alex Salmond on his emphatic win".

"But on the issue of the United Kingdom, if they want to hold a referendum, I will campaign to keep our United Kingdom together, with every single fibre that I have."

Yet Mr Cameron refuses to go head to head......

Prime Minster of the whole UK (which includes Scotland) against The Scottish duely elected First Minister in a live TV debate on the Pro's and Con's to independence or remaining in the Union with England

As usual when it comes right down to the nitty gritty the UK Prime Minister David Cameron shows utter contempt for the Scottish people and of course he shows "Cowardice" by taking the easy option to say.......

" it is a Scottish decision and should be left to the Scottish people to debate the Pro's & Con's"

Mr Cameron the duely send a Labour candidate on Mr Alistair Darling to fight the Unionist cause, why not a Tory minister after all they do have ONE Scottish MSP......... Very very strange to send a member of your opposing political opponents rather than your own Tory party MSP!!

So Mr Cameron why make your bold statements above if you do not have the courage and conviction to carry out your commitment to Scotland and the Scottish people!!

It should also be highlighted that Alex Salmond is a duly "elected" MSP by the Scottish people can David Cameron lay claim to be duly elected with a majority vote from the UK people, no he can't, David Cameron has assumed power.

At least Alex Salmond has a mandate to govern, David Cameron has no mandate to govern

However, David Cameron should step up and back his claim to keep Scotland in the Union with England.

What has Cameron to fear apart from his own inability to win the debate!!


Peter C
John Kelly John Kelly
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

Scottish Tax And Spend
Today the Scottish Government published a two-page document providing a summary of trends in total Scottish tax receipts since 1980-81. The summary allocates to Scotland a geographical share of North Sea Oil revenues and draws from experimental statistics of Scotland's fiscal balance which are published on the Government Expenditures and Revenues Scotland (GERS) website here.

The data are not new. The fiscal balance estimates were updated for the GERS exercise to include 201-2 fiscal data and published on 5 March. Nevertheless, the Herald thought the information to be of sufficient importance to run the story as its main feature under the headline "New Report: Scots paying more tax than rest of UK" Given prominence in the story was a quote by Finance Secretary John Swinney from the government Press Release accompanying the report:

These figures confirm what we have known all along. Scotland more than pays her way in the UK. They show that the average tax receipt per person in Scotland has been higher in each of the last 30 years than it has been across the UK as a whole.

As the chart below shows John Swinney's comment is correct.



However, what was not reported in the Herald, wisely in my view, was John Swinney's further comment in the Press Release:

With the full control of our finances we could have invested this money for the people of Scotland, creating jobs and investing in public services.

The 'new report' does not contain any information on spending. An examination of the spending data on the same per capita basis as the tax data and taken from the GERS website reveals the following:



Yes, spending per person in Scotland has also been higher in each of the last 30 years than it has been across the UK as a whole.

So, broadly, these greater tax receipts were invested for the people of Scotland, creating jobs and investing in public services.

The Scottish people have received a significant dividend from North Sea oil revenues, much more than people in the rest of UK.

Now, it is clear that oil revenues were exceptionally high in real terms in the 1980s - as the tax receipts chart indicates. The Scottish people might legitimately note that the greater spending received in that period was much lower than the tax receipt surplus.

A sense of this can be gained from the final chart, which expresses per capita spending in Scotland and UK as a ratio of per capita tax receipts. This is really another way of expressing the fiscal balance data as I did in this post.



The large scale of oil revenues in the 1980s meant that Scotland would have been in surplus - ratio less than one. But from 1990 the spending to tax ratio has tended to be similar in Scotland as in the UK, in fact a little higher in Scotland at 1.11 compared to 1.10 in the UK.

So, if we are to talk about a country 'paying her way', we need to bring into account spending as well as revenues. Public spending per capita has averaged more than ten per cent (10.86%) higher in Scotland than in the UK since 1990/91, while tax receipts (including a geographic share of oil revenues) have averaged less than ten per cent (9.67%) higher in Scotland than in the UK since 1990/91.

With the independent Office of Budget Responsibility predicting (page 102 of its March Economic and Fiscal Outlook) a sustained decline in future oil revenues from £11.2bn in 2011-12 to £4.3bn in 2017-18, Scottish tax receipts are set to fall relative to the UK.

And of course I have not brought into this discussion the issue that an independent Scotland is likely to have to pay higher borrowing costs than the UK as I noted in this and this post. It is not just the size and relative size of a government deficit that matters.

Funding costs must also be considered.
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

Part 1.

Figures released by the Electoral Commission showed that Scotland recorded the highest turnout of voters - 50.7%

Once all results were in, the SNP totalled 69 seats, Labour had secured 37, the Tories had 15, the Lib Dems won five, and others totalled three.

The SNP formed a minority government after the 2007 elections, described the unfolding Holyrood election results as "historic".

The SNP went on to secure a landslide overall majority in 2011 which was meant to be impossible but they achieved the impossible mainly down to the Scottish people being sick fed up being controlled by a Right Wing Westminster government be it Tories or Labour which are virtually one and the same political parties.

The Scottish people want change and the figures below show our growing discontent since 2003 elections and the rise and rise in SNP and the decline and faith the Scottish people have with Labour & all Westminster governments.

May 6, 1999 Election Results - Scotland Totals.......

Scottish Labour Party ......................................56 seats
Scottish National Party.....................................35 seats
Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party........18 seats
Scottish Liberal Democrats..............................17 seats
______________________________________________________________

May 1st, 2003 Election Results - Scotland Totals........

Scottish Labour Party ......................................50 seats
Scottish National Party.....................................27 seats
Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party........18 seats
Scottish Liberal Democrats..............................17 seats
______________________________________________________________

May 3, 2007 Election Results - Scotland Totals

Scottish National Party ......................................47 seats
Scottish Labour Party    ......................................46 seats
Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party...........17seats
Scottish Liberal Democrats................................. 16 seats
______________________________________________________________

May 5, 2011 Election Results - Scotland Totals.........

Scottish National Party ......................................69 seats
Scottish Labour Party    ......................................37 seats
Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party...........15 seats
Scottish Liberal Democrats.................................. 5 seats
______________________________________________________________
Peter C
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

Part 2.

For the SNP to secure a Yes vote they just have to focus on whether the Scottish people want to continue being ruled by a totally incompetent Westminster government in London who do not have the Scottish peoples best interest at heart.    
Be Brave and seize the day and take control of our own Destiny and have Scottish politicians decide what's best for Scotland.

I would say to Scottish voters......

Ignore the Better Together scaremongering, be Brave seize the day, there will be huge difficulties ahead and many unforseen problems but then we face the same being controlled by Westminster with little or no say about the kind off society and country "We" want to be.

Ask yourself this question......

What's in it for Westminster?
 
There must be something and it's not an overbearing need to look after the Scots!!

Why if Scotland is such a burden on the Westminster treasury , why is Westminster so much wanting to keep Scotland in the Union?

Why did Westminster agree to the Barnett formula that would give Scotland £1,000.00's per head more than the English?

How does Westminster square this the the English people!!


Perhaps it maybe that Westminster has more hidden secrets like the McCrone report

The McCrone report was a UK Government dossier on the economic viability of an independent Scotland.

The dossier came to light in 2005 when the SNP obtained the report under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

In his evidence to the Lords Committee on the Economic Implications of Scottish Independence in 2012, Professor McCrone stated that Scottish GDP would increase by around 20% if North Sea oil were to be counted as part of it.

The McCrone report was written in 1974 by Professor Gavin McCrone, a leading civil service economist, for the Conservative UK government. By the time it was completed the Labour Party had returned to power.

The report predicted that North sea oil revenue would give an independent Scotland a large tax surplus, on such a scale as to be "embarrassing", making the country "as rich as Switzerland."

It also surmised that this surplus revenue would make the Scottish pound the hardest currency in Europe "with the exception of the Norwegian kronor"

The report went on to advise UK government ministers on the various methods they could use to take "the wind out of the SNP sails".

The incoming Labour administration classified the document as secret over fears it could give a further boost to the SNP's policy of Scottish independence.

A year after Professor McCrone had submitted his report to the government, civil servants (including McCrone) met again in London to discuss its implications. They concluded that his findings had been accurate, and that the average income in Scotland would increase by up to 30% per head if the country became an independent state. They also concluded that Scotland's "economic problems would disappear", and it would become "the Kuwait of the Western world".
Peter C
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

I apologise in advance to all women who this comment does not relate to

Let's face facts Westminster governments have a lot in common with "women in relationships".

"Women in relationships are like monkeys i.e. they won't let go of their current branch (partner) until they have a firm grip on the next."

Just as Westminster will not let go any country it tied to the Union until there is a better branch or "Nothing" left to rape from the land.
Peter C
John Kelly John Kelly
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

Peter C

I understand the fervour of your national pride, however it has blinded you to the realities involved both fiscal and political in the SNP rush for independence, like any other salesman Alex Salmond excentuates the "Benefits" and ignores the disadvantages, the buyers in this case are the Scottish people, my people, and someone should fully explain the meaning tothem of the the Latin term 'Caveat Emptor' before the independence referendum.
I have tried to put forward the argument concerning the true costs to our people of separation from the union, and the facade of that independence in real terms if EU membership for Scotland was achieved as a counterbalance to the SNP claims of fictional wealth for all in a land of milk and honey, sadly in your case to no avail.

We will all know the truth one day, sometimes the truth is a bitter pill to swallow, until then I shall not waste any more time on this matter that will be resolved one way or another by the ballotbox, from which all Scots living in England are barred from participating in as are any Scots in the armed forces serving abroad at the time of the vote.
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

This post was updated on .
John k,

To say I am surprised (understatment) at how you have been wrong for a second time on some of your claims, your research is usually second to none, however.......

In an earlier post you said.......

"the SNP pledge that Scotland would automatically be accepted as a member state of the EU is a lie"

I had to update your claim above and I have to bring to your attention about your claim below......

You are slightly behind on your claims that a Scottish soldier serving overseas being refused a vote.

Below is the fact on this........ Published on 16 March 2013

Scottish soldiers serving abroad will still have a referendum vote

Richard Mowbray is wrong to write that a Scottish soldier serving abroad will be disenfranchised for the referendum vote.

A soldier serving abroad, with an address in Scotland at which he/she is registered to vote, would be able to claim a postal vote.


I agree it is wrong to stop a Scot living in England or any other country from having a say in their homelands future, they rightly have a Say!

You may recall I recently returned back to Scotland after living in England for many years, if I had still been living in England or any other country...... I would arrange with a relative to register me as living at their address and I would Have my Say and get my right to vote on my homelands future. I understand this may not be possible for all but most Scots living outside Scotland will have a relative they can ask to do this.

John, you said......

"I understand the fervour of your national pride, however it has blinded you to the realities involved both fiscal and political in the SNP rush for independence,"

First of I certainly am not blinded to the pitfalls ahead both fiscal or political should the Scottish people vote YES to independence. I fully accept there will be difficult times ahead but they are not insurmountable and in time we will work through them, after all Scotland is in a better position than most countries who have gained independence.

You have put your points over very well apart from a couple of points I have had to point out above.

However, in another post you said in reply to myself "it depends on which set of figures an analyst uses" as you have not posted where you are gathering your fiscal and political facts from or are your fiscal and political your own thoughts, which doesn't really matter because then I could find another set of analyst figures to counter your source.

It boils down to which set of analyst are correct and in my opinion until Scotland takes a Brave decision to go independent we will never know unless the Scots take a Brave step forward and divorce their Union with England.
How many couples have remained in a broken dead end Union (marriage) in fear taking a Brave decision to eventually make the break, only to find that yes it was tuff to begin with but look back and say it was Right for them.

I accept your assumptions/facts that difficulties lay ahead but I am not convinced that they are insurmountable in "Time".

I also believe in......... Fortune Favours the Brave!

I say this because.......

There is not a single " economist" if whom I have found that says Scotland would not survive as an independent country, in fact most say Scotland can do well on their own.

There is not a single MP in Westminster who say that Scotland could not survive as an independent country.

I posed a set of question in my previous post of which if I may, ask you to reply to......

Ask yourself this question......

What's in it for Westminster?
 
There must be something and it's not an overbearing need to look after the Scots!!

Why if Scotland is such a burden on the Westminster treasury , why is Westminster so much wanting to keep Scotland in the Union?

Why did English Westminster MP's agree to the Barnett formula that would give Scotland £1,000.00's per head more than the English?

How does Westminster square this the the English people!!

Perhaps it maybe that Westminster has more hidden secrets like the McCrone report
Peter C
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

By Simon Johnson, The Telegraph Scottish Political Editor3:17PM GMT 18 Mar 2013

Nicola Sturgeon, the Deputy First Minister, has published legislation to draw up a separate and confidential electoral register for minors who will turn 16 by the time of the autumn 2014 referendum and every household in the country will be asked to provide details.
However, no similar special arrangements have been made for Scottish members of the armed forces who are serving abroad or in the remainder of the UK.
Soldiers can apply for a “service vote” if they do not live in Scotland but not while registered as an “ordinary voter” on the electoral roll in other parts of the United Kingdom.
This applies to thousands of Scottish servicemen based in other parts of the UK who are registered to vote where they live.
Although a special effort has been made to extend the franchise to teenagers, the same rules will apply to soldiers in the referendum as to any other election

But senior servicemen argued last night the independence referendum marks the most significant vote for centuries as it will determine whether Scotland leaves the United Kingdom forever.
Major General Andrew Mackay, the British Army’s retired GOC Scotland and Prince Harry’s former commanding officer in Afghanistan, said last night: “It seems incongruous that as a born and bred Scot you can serve your country yet be denied a vote.
“Soldiers never like to stand by passively particularly when they have made so much sacrifice themselves.”
Jim Murphy, Labour’s Shadow Defence Secretary, said: “Those who have volunteered to serve our country are genuine patriots and should have a say in the future of our country.
“In all the excitement of 16 year-olds getting the chance to vote it is unacceptable that servicemen and women posted outside of Scotland are being overlooked.”
Frankie Caldwell, a former captain in the Royal Tank Regiment who now lives in Inverclyde, said the lack of special provision for the armed forces and their families was a “betrayal”.
But unveiling the legislation, Ms Sturgeon said: “No one has a bigger stake in the future of our country than today's young people and it is only right that they are able to have a say in the most important vote to be held in Scotland for three centuries.”
Under the Scottish Independence Referendum (Franchise) Bill, British and EU citizens resident in Scotland will have the right to vote along with armed forces personnel registered for a ballot north of the Border.
Soldiers posted outside Scotland can apply for a service vote in the referendum if they can provide an address north of the Border where they would be living if they were not in the armed forces.
If they cannot say where they would be living, they can provide their last UK address before they took up their posting.
However, they cannot simultaneously be on the electoral roll in a constituency elsewhere in the UK and have a service vote in Scotland.
The rules governing a service vote may also not give a ballot paper in the referendum to Scottish soldiers who have moved around a lot during their careers or whose families are now based south of the Border.
The Royal Scots Borderers, 1st Bn The Royal Regiment of Scotland, are scheduled to move from Edinburgh to Belfast next year.
The Highlanders, 4th Bn The Royal Regiment of Scotland, are based in Germany and will still be there when the referendum takes place.
The Royal Highland Fusiliers, 2nd Bn The Royal Regiment of Scotland, and the Black Watch, 3rd Bn The Royal Regiment of Scotland, will be continue based in Edinburgh and Fort George respectively.
However, many more Scottish servicemen in the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force will not be able to vote on the referendum because they are already on the electoral roll in England.
The Electoral Commission said they could make an application to switch to a service vote in the referendum but this would require them to obtain and return a special application.
They would then have to switch back if they wanted to vote at their home address in the Westminster general election six months after the referendum.
In contrast, under the SNP’s plans a form being sent to every household in Scotland to create an entirely new register for teenagers who are 15 but will reach 16 by the time of the referendum.
Their details will be held on a separate Register of Young Voters (RYV), which will be used to give 16 and 17-year-olds a vote.
Amid concern about gathering the personal details of children, including their dates of birth and addresses, the information will not be made public so it cannot be accessed by the likes of marketing companies.
Prisoners are to be denied a vote despite the European Court of Human Rights ruling that a blanket ban on inmates taking parts in UK elections is unlawful.
The Bill applies only to the referendum, the date of which is expected to be announced by Alex Salmond this week, meaning the minimum voting age will revert to 18 for the 2015 general election.

Peter if a Scot living elsewhere in the UK where he was a registered voter arranged through a relative or friend resident in Scotland to use their address to register for the right to vote in the Scottish referendum they would have committed electoral fraud and those assisting them would be guilty of aiding and abetting that fraud, are you recommending such criminality?
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

John K,


You asked......


"Peter if a Scot living elsewhere in the UK where he was a registered voter arranged through a relative or friend resident in Scotland to use their address to register for the right to vote in the Scottish referendum they would have committed electoral fraud and those assisting them would be guilty of aiding and abetting that fraud, are you recommending such criminality?" 


If I can take your good self as an example.......


If you temporarily removed yourself from from being a registered voter south of the border, then temporarily added your name to be living with a friend or relative, no fraud would have been committed. There would be no way in disproving you did not actually live temporarily at an address in Scotland.

I intend to seek clarification on the right for service personnel who are Scottish and their eligibility to vote in a referendum.

However, if a scottish member of the armed forces are registered say in England and the Westminster government as stipulated or agreed it is a referendum to be held "only" in Scotland then it stands to reason that one must have a permanent address in Scotland.

I am not 100% certain who made the rules on where and who can vote but as the referendum is only being granted by Westminster I would hazard a good guess Westminster will have laid down who is eligible to vote, this problem is "Not" solely the making of the SNP.
Peter C
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

John K,

Here is the official answer to......... Who can vote in the referendum on Scottish independence?

Question: 
Who can vote in the referendum on Scottish independence?

Answer: 
The franchise for the referendum is currently being finalised by the Scottish Parliament, after the general principles were agreed by the UK and Scottish Governments in October 2012.

It is expected that the list of those who are eligible to vote will be the same as the list of those who can vote in Scottish Parliament and local authority elections, with the addition of 16 and 17 year olds who have not previously been able to vote.

This means that the following groups of people will be entitled to register to vote:

British citizens resident in Scotland.
Qualifying Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland. This means Commonwealth citizens who either have leave to remain in the UK or do not require such leave, and are resident in Scotland.
Citizens of the Republic of Ireland and other EU countries resident in Scotland.
Members of the House of Lords resident in Scotland.

Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the Armed Forces or with Her Majesty’s Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.
It is also very likely that arrangements for service personnel registered to vote in Scotland but likely to be serving outside of the country at the time of the referendum will be the same as for other elections.  

Service personnel in this position can register as "service voters" for five years.  

This would give them the option of postal and proxy voting.  Most will use proxy voting as postal voting can be difficult to complete in the time required.
Peter C
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

John K,

This is information taken from the MOD

The referendum on Scottish independence will be held on 18 September 2014.

MOD policy is to encourage personnel to register so that they can vote in all relevant elections, including the Scottish independence referendum. Registration is however a personal matter; Service personnel are free to decide where and how they register to vote.
The MOD works closely with the Electoral Commission and aims to ensure that all Service personnel are aware of the importance of registering to vote and of the options for doing so.

The Scottish independence referendum - Who is able to vote?

Service personnel should note that in broad terms, the key factor in determining whether they can vote is whether they are registered to vote in Scotland. It does not depend on their origins, sense of identity or association with a unit traditionally regarded as Scottish.
More specifically, people entitled to register to vote in the referendum include those in the following groups:
• British citizens residing in Scotland;
• Commonwealth citizens who either have leave to remain in the UK or do not require such leave, and are residing in Scotland;
• Citizens of the Republic of Ireland and other EU countries residing in Scotland;
• Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the Armed Forces or abroad with Her Majesty’s Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.
As 16 and 17 year olds are included in the franchise it is particularly important that they take action to ensure they are, where eligible, registered to vote in the referendum.

The Scottish independence referendum - How do I register to vote?

Ordinary Voters. In order to register as an ordinary voter the Service person would need to be living at an address in Scotland. The annual household canvass is taking place in Scotland from 1 October 2013 to 10 March 2014. Along with the household registration form, a ‘young voter registration form’ is being sent to each household to enable Electoral Registration Officers (EROs) to collect and confirm details of any 15 year olds who will reach their 16th birthday on or before 18 September 2014. The details on both forms should be checked carefully to ensure all eligible voters in the household have been included before returning the forms to the Electoral Registration Office. Electoral registration forms (including the ‘young voter registration form’) can also be downloaded from www.aboutmyvote.co.uk. They can be submitted throughout the year although they must be received by the Electoral Registration Office at least eleven working days ahead of any referendum or election the applicant wishes to vote in. The deadline to register for the Scottish referendum will be midnight on 3 September 2014.

Service Voter. Service personnel and their spouses or civil partners can also choose to register as Service Voters by making a Service declaration. See paragraph 24 below for details of how the eligible 16 and 17 year old children of parents with a Service qualification can register to vote in the referendum.
Those who have made a Service declaration and are registered as Service voters are able to register at a fixed address in the UK even if they move around or are based abroad. A Service voter declaration lasts for five years so this option may be particularly suitable if you are posted overseas or likely to be posted overseas in the near future.
Once registered as a Service voter Service personnel and their spouses or civil partners will be registered to vote in their chosen area in all subsequent elections including UK Parliament, local and European parliamentary elections provided they are aged 18 or over. More information on how to register as a Service Voter including the application form can be found on the www.aboutmyvote.co.uk website by clicking on the ‘Armed Forces’ link at the bottom of the page.

The current rules require a Service voter who is residing at an address in the United Kingdom to give that address on their Service voter declaration (including Service Families Accommodation or Single Living Accommodation (SFA/SLA). In some cases, a Service voter may be able to establish residency at more than one address in the United Kingdom. This situation could arise, for example, if they are stationed and living in barracks in England, Wales or Northern Ireland but have their main family home in Scotland. In these circumstances they could choose to give their address in Scotland on their declaration.

If a Service voter is serving overseas they must complete their Service declaration using an address where they would have been living in the United Kingdom but for their Service obligations. This might be the address where they live at when their unit is in the United Kingdom. If a person cannot give an address in the United Kingdom where they are living, or where they would have been living but for their Service obligations, then they may give an address where they have previously lived.
Whether a Service voter can establish residence in Scotland will depend on their individual circumstances and it is for the Electoral Registration Officer to determine whether or not someone is entitled to be registered. Anyone who has any doubts about whether or not they are entitled to be registered should contact their local Electoral Registration Officer for further advice. Contact details for Electoral Registration Officers are available at www.aboutmyvote.co.uk.


Overseas elector. If you live overseas and you do not wish to register as a Service voter you can register as an Overseas elector. This option is available to all British citizens who live abroad but have been registered as electors in Britain in the last 15 years. The disadvantage of being an Overseas elector is that you can only vote in UK Parliamentary and European Parliamentary elections - you will not be able to vote in the Scottish independence referendum as Overseas electors can not vote in local government elections.

Service personnel and their spouses or civil partners who are not currently registered to vote and who would like and are eligible to be registered in Scotland, are encouraged to do so without delay. Electoral registers are updated monthly but in order to be registered to vote in the referendum your registration application must be received by the Electoral Registration Officer by midnight on Wednesday 3 September 2014. Service personnel are strongly encouraged not to leave it to the last minute to register.

The Scottish independence referendum - How do I cast my vote?
The arrangements for voting in the referendum are a matter for the Scottish Parliament and are contained in Scottish legislation.
Once registered to vote, Service personnel may cast their vote in one of the three following ways:
In person. At your polling station if you are in the area where you are registered to vote on 18 September 2014.

By post. Your ballot paper will be sent to you before the date of the referendum and, providing it is completed correctly and returned in time, your vote will be counted. Depending on where you are serving there is a risk that you may not be able to return your ballot before voting closes due to the time taken to deliver and return a postal ballot paper Voting by post may not be the best way for you to vote, especially if you are or likely to be overseas or deployed in September 2014. In these circumstances you are advised to appoint a proxy.

By Proxy. This is where you ask someone you know and trust to vote on your behalf. Your proxy can either vote for you at your polling station or by post. For the referendum your proxy must be aged 16 or over and must be a British, Irish or Commonwealth citizen or a citizen of another European Union state. If you have appointed a proxy, you can still vote in person as long as your proxy has not already voted for you or applied to vote for you by post.

Information about how to register for postal and proxy votes, including application forms that need to be completed and returned to your ERO, can be found at the www.aboutmyvote.co.uk website by clicking on the ‘Armed Forces’ link at the bottom of the page.

Deadlines for applications for postal and proxy votes. The deadline for postal and proxy vote applications is 5pm, 11 working days before the referendum i.e. 5pm on Wednesday 3 September 2014. It is also possible to apply for an emergency proxy vote up until 5pm on polling day if you are unavoidably and unforeseeably absent from home and are therefore unable to go to your polling station to vote.
Peter C
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

In reply to this post by Peter. C
Dear Peter and John K,

Forgive me, I have been out of circulation for nearly 30 hours - we had a power outage at the worst possible time with severe blizzards and external temperatures last night at minus 30C! A transformer blew at Sunnyside (irony!) substation which sent a mains surge to the main generator at Holyrood (also ironic!) which blacked out the entire island! Sadly we have no coal to warm us in our Condo!, and getting the car started last night in minus 30 was an experience I never want to repeat, but a warm sandwich and coffee at Tim Horton's was very welcome indeed! This is proving to be a raw old winter in Newfoundland, already surpassing records and it's barely started!

I've just read your heated exchanges, but John is right about the main anomaly! If I as the rightful Laird of Aikenhead were to vote in the Scottish referendum I would be committing fraud! because, I was born in Westminster Hospital and my father in Manchester Royal infirmary. The title is not recognised because after Culloden our lands were forfeit to the Crown, though ironically if Scotland goes independent we can do something about getting South Glasgow back! That's how utterly daft this stupid referendum is! And personally, for Scotland's sake, I don't want the auld rivalries to resurface, and Glasgow can keep Aikenhead house for the seniors if it helps them and Glasgow, same goes for Rangers football ground! as far as I am concerned - yet when it comes to a vote, I'm a leper!
David A
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

David,

Welcome back from your excile over the past 30 hours. I hope you are well wrapped up and in relative better conditions now.

I hope that John K and my own debated has not come over as heated....... I'd like to think they have been a friendly, frank exchange of views without malice!!

I had said earlier that.......

"I agree it is wrong to stop a Scot living in England or any other country from having a say in their homelands future, they rightly have a Say!"

However, I have highlighted to John K in an above post........

Question:  Who can vote in the referendum on Scottish independence?

Answer: 
The franchise for the referendum is currently being finalised by the Scottish Parliament, after the general principles were agreed by the UK and Scottish Governments in October 2012.

The point in this is to point out that the restrictions are not solely down to the SNP it is also the UK Westminster that have implemented these restrictions equally.

While it is unfortunate and regrettable that some will not be able to participate in the referendum, I think yourself and John K must concede that a line had to be drawn somewhere and just as in means testing some fall foul to getting benefits due to being just £0.01p over the threshold.
If a line is not drawn we could have the ridiculous situation where anyone like the Americans who lay claim to Scottish ancestor claim a right to vote!

However, I think I have demonstrated that there is plenty provision been made to accommodate and Scottish service personnel, I have shown information that is freely available on the MOD website that clearly shows the vote is available to personnel that care to vote regardless of where they are based around the world.

I don't dismiss John K's arguments, I'm just not convinced of his version, I am even less convinced with the poor show from the " Better Together" camp who have produced no an once of why we are "Better Together" all I have heard and read are negative, innuendo and "Scaremongering" they constantly ask question of Alex Salmond & the SNP but yet produce absolutely "Nothing" in terms of why it is in the Scottish peoples interests to remain in the Union with England.

The one thing that no politician will answer is my questions to John K or anyone who has an opinion or answer, here they are again........

What's in it for Westminster?
 
There must be something and it's not an overbearing need to look after the Scots so what is in it for Westminster?

Why if Scotland is such a burden on the Westminster treasury , why is Westminster so much wanting to keep Scotland in the Union?

Why did English Westminster MP's agree to the Barnett formula that would give Scotland £1,000.00's per head more than the English?

How does Westminster square this the the English people?

Perhaps it maybe that Westminster has more hidden secrets like the McCrone report, what more is being hidden?


There is no fraud if you remove yourself from your present address and register yourself at a permanent address with a family member or friend who has a permanent address in Scotland....... Please can anyone explain how there is fraud!!

David, you say.......

"If I as the rightful Laird of Aikenhead were to vote in the Scottish referendum I would be committing fraud! because, I was born in Westminster Hospital and my father in Manchester Royal infirmary. The title is not recognised because after Culloden our lands were forfeit to the Crown, though ironically if Scotland goes independent we can do something about getting South Glasgow back!"

As I highlighted above it is regrettable and unfortunate but it appears you have fallen on the wrong side of the line which was drawn up between the Scottish & Westminster governments.

I don't mean to trivialise your ancestral claim to lands in South Glasgow but haven't you shot yourself in the foot because you said.......

"The title is not recognised because after Culloden our lands were forfeit to the Crown, though ironically if Scotland goes independent we can do something about getting South Glasgow back!"

Correct me if I am wrong (and I may well be) but if the lands in South Glasgow were forfeited to the Crown and as I recall if Scotland go independent Scotland will still swear allegiance to the Queen and Crown.

This being the case wouldn't your claims remain "forfeited to the Crown"?
Peter C
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

Peter,

You are perfectly correct! We lowlanders are very good at shooting ourselves in the foot. We weren't highlanders until Forbes of Forbes asked my ancestor for help albeit for a futile cause! Scarcely a family escaped being pitted against elements of their own family! Same story with Grant, and MacGregor and Rose. MacDonald backed off at the last minute as did Campbell! so that just left Maclean and a few other clans solid. As to rights - yes, ours went to the Crown and the tenure of Lord Cosmo (Gordon! despite, the myths, families did NOT enjoy shedding their ain blood. )! - ironic since we fought under his brother's banner (Lord Lewis, who in vain tried to get his brother to come round until the last minute - sadly he did not, because he knew the way the wind was blowing, a bit like my Talisker Whisky! Still, when Cumberland started his butchering, the Gordons very sensibly reunited and took a back seat like the other lot, MacLeod and Hamilton included)! ! Yes, we too have plenty of ancestors abroad, mostly Nova Scotia, and Eastern USA, and yes, in my view, they have just as much right as I to claim back what Queen Victoria herself acknowledged  as "a travesty"! So when we talk of lands ceded to the Crown, this was done by right of conquest, and no other. If Independence happens, you can be assured that those who lost so much will be reasserting their claims amidst a sea of discontent. Go figure out the rest! As for our gracious Majesty, she might well think of doing a James I in reverse! Scots appear just as loyal to her, as her English subjects, possibly more so! It's all such a nonsense this Independence thing. Scots, English, Welsh and Irish should all reunite to face the gathering storm together, because come it will! Happy New Year!
David A
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

David,

I wise man once said......... "May you live in interesting times".

I am sure this year ahead is certainly going to fulfill this saying and then some!

Thank for your lengthy reply but you only replied to the claims to your ancestral land.
I always love to read you family ties to ancient times, however, getting back to the topic.

My questions remain unanswered by you, John K or anyone else who might like to enlighten me.

Here they are again......


1. What's in it for Westminster?
 
2. There must be something and it's not an overbearing need to look after the Scots so what is in it for Westminster?

3. Why if Scotland is such a burden on the Westminster treasury , why is Westminster so much wanting to keep Scotland in the Union?

4. Why did English Westminster MP's agree to the Barnett formula that would give Scotland £1,000.00's per head more than the English?

5. How does Westminster square this the the English people?

6. Perhaps it maybe that Westminster has more hidden secrets like the McCrone report, what more is being hidden?

7. What is in it for the Scottish people?

There is no fraud if you remove yourself from your present address and register yourself at a permanent address with a family member or friend who has a permanent address in Scotland....... Please can anyone explain how there is fraud!!
Peter C
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