The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

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Darwin Darwin
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The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

Recent independent reports on how Scotland will fare if they decide in their referendum to go on their own have been a bit of an eye-opener.

It would seem that they will be significantly worse off, despite the oil, and could mean an increase in income tax of up to 9%, and a dramatic decrease in their commitment to public services.

The SNP keep saying they will be better off, but most financial institutions are strongly disagreeing with them.

Like most English people, I couldn't give a monkey's what they do.

What I do care about is, if they do decide to go on their own, that we don't financially support them.
All UK public offices (tax offices etc) in Scotland should close and be moved back into the UK.
All UK owned public buildings should close down and if the Scots want them they can buy them off us.
Any Scot with a British Passport should have their UK passport immediately revoked.

If they want to go on their own, then that's fair enough as it is up to them, but having done it, they should not get any help or one single penny from the UK.
David A David A
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

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You may regard the Scots as many things, but, for the most part, we are not stupid - we were at both Bannockburn and Culloden (right sides both!), but turning our backsides to the Union would be to quote below our Bard, food for deep reflection, and England remember what the word Union is supposed to mean!

from his (Burns') poem Libertie - A vision

"Alfred! on the starry throne,
Surrounded by the tuneful choir,
The bards that erst have struck the patriot lyre,
And roused the freeborn Briton's soul of fire -
No more thy England own!
Dare injured nations form the great design
To make detested tyrants bleed?
Thy England execrates the glorious deed!
Beneath her hostile banners waving,
Every pang of honour braving,
England in thunder calls - "The tyrant's cause is mine!"

Sounds a bit like you in your rant, Darwin! Let's not for auld acquaintance sake, revive the auld rivalries or prejudices!

P.S. And do please remember, it's no longer a case of them and us! 300 years since the Act of Union and plenty of inter-marriage in the interim has assured that! Now, it's simply us, isn't it???!!!
David A
Darwin Darwin
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

David,

I didn't say the Scots were stupid, but something to bear in mind is, nor are we.
What I would say is this, the Scots want their cake and to eat it.

If as a result of the referendum the vote is to go independent, then that is fine
provided it is independence, and not some fudged agreement where the UK continues to prop them up.

If the result of the vote is that the Scots want to stay in the Union, then there should be a further referendum involving the English, Welsh, and Northern Irish, where we decide if we want them.
It's only fair that both sides have their say.

And it's a waste of time quoting Burns outside of Scotland as no-one else could give a flying **** about the gibberish that he is associated with.
The man was a bumbling baffoon.
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

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David A David A
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

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Darwin,

If you cannot recognise the biting satire and irony in his words, you are the buffoon, not he!

P.S. It was thanks to his irrepressible courage and wit striking a chord with all humanity (a rare gift, I suggest), as a mere ploughman by birth, and his sympathetic and influential sponsors, Gavin Hamilton, and earlier, my own ancestor, Robert Aiken, that he managed to save his neck in the turbulent times he lived; one example alone (and believe me, there were many) was ignoring the ban on the plaid by the Hanoverians and daring to join the Cartoonists on Fleet Street, in ridiculing them at every opportunity!  (all punishable by death). Small wonder we revere this man. I suggest you re-read the poem extract I gave. He's saying to England - come on, now, Union is supposed to mean even playing field, not what England dictates! - as relevant today, I suggest, as it ever was!
David A
Darwin Darwin
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

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This will be good.

150 countries have successfully gone independent since WWII ????

I'll give you Canada and New Zealand ... who else has been a success.
The likes of Australia certainly hasn't, only 1 adult in 8 works in Oz, and their national debt is out of this world.

Oh and by the way... come next year, your number will not reach 151.

Although I said I don't care if Scotland gets independence, on reflection I suppose I hope they do. This is not that I care about Scotland, but I think the UK will be better off without them.

So many people on this forum hate the immigrants in this country.
It will be interesting to see what they think of the Scots if Scotland gets their independence and even more of them come to England looking for work when there is none where they come from.

Peter. C Peter. C
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David A David A
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

Your last point seems to be the only reason why Scotland is not wholly SNP now! But, as we fast realise with Miliband in spite of the honesty in the man, as his saving grace, that there is little if any substance in him, as he is daily used as a front man for both the machinations of the Unions as well as big business, the waverers like myself are sorely tempted by the day, to vote for Scotland's independence...
David A
Peter. C Peter. C
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Peter. C Peter. C
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David A David A
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My thoughts entirely, Peter. I still would like to remain in the Union, but it's high time England gave us the respect that such a Union deserves as Burns describes. Like you, my heart yearns for an independent Scotland, but barring a miracle - and make no mistake the EU and Euro are desperately trying to stem the tide which has weakened their currency to a huge extent to the pound's benefit, as America vainly tries to convince everyone that a Stock Market trading promised money can magically sail into the sunset on the never never, will somehow offset the inevitable wane and crash, she is as deluded as the rest of them. When the chips are down, it is best for Britain to remain United (with the addition of all Ireland and ALL the Isles!) and face the hurricane together! Moral there, somewhere! Love thy neighbour?

P.S. Seen the latest RBS and Deutsche Bank scandal on rate rigging? - former is enough to sink Scotland before she starts! Salmond needs to negotiate anew with Westminster, with less talk of Bannockburn, on a new deal for Scotland, but remaining in a new Union of the British Isles as well. If he continues to take the high road, it will be not only tough, but nigh on impossible, I suggest!
David A
Peter. C Peter. C
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David A David A
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

Frankly, you would be taking the same risk as Bitcoin or Facebook! Would you be prepared to gamble our motherland on that basis? I'll tell you for nothing. I wouldn't! Carney has cleverly engineered us into a Free Zone, which is why the world's money is flooding into London. America is trying to penalise Canadians by way as a hostage to fortune, but thankfully for you, Carney is remaining loyal to Britain! Don't care what people say about him, he's miles better than Mervyn King ever was, and Scotland would simply be daft, in my view, to contemplate an alternative to Stirling (whoops! Wallace slip! Sterling!). Ye'll tak the high road? I'll tak the low road, and I'll be in Scotland afore ye! Moral there, my friend!
David A
Peter. C Peter. C
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David A David A
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

Peter,

I have attempted to answer your points below:


David
 

I thank you for your reply.........

In no way am I suggesting Scotland should go for a new currency, I'm trying to get my head around all the viable options that have been thrown out there due to a Westminster spokes person making a claim that........ I thought you were!

If Scotland votes YES to independence it is "Highly Unlikely" that Scotland would get to continue using GBP. Says who? This is the kind of bullying and giant bluff, in my view, that Carney is being subjected to over his mother country, Canada, in an atempt to tow the Washington line. Osborne and Cameron are trying the same thing with Salmond on the Westminster line. Salmond should call their bluff. Truth is England will not survive a depression without Scotland and the rest of the Isles uniting! 

Yet Cameron & Osborne have refused to give a definitive Yes or No to Scotland staying with the GBP. See my comment above

As usual the "Better Together" refuse to give the Facts to the Scottish people. Nothing changes there! 

It is a very simple question for Westminster to say Yes or No to Scotland remaining to use GBP. They will say Yes because they have to! 

Can I draw your thoughts on whether you think Scotland can continue using the Pound Stirling or do you believe Westminster or the BoE can prevent the Scottish people from using the Pound Stirling? Yes, we will continue using GBP if we have any sense! see above 

Also what is your thoughts on the following points........

1. Scotland is the rest of the UK’s second biggest export market after the United states of America, it exports around £60 billion of goods into Scotland it would make no sense for a Westminster government to try to force its own businesses into a separate currency with Scotland when Scotland didn’t want to be in a separate currency it would cost jobs. Are you saying America exports this amount to Scotland, or Scotland exports same to America? Either way, there are massive trading links which England cannot nor will they ignore, despite all the postulating!

2. Without Scotland’s oil and gas exports the UK deficit would “deepen” which would be “damaging for the sterling currency.” No doubt about that! and last thing Britain needs right now is total reliance on EDF, the French company, which is itself, at the mercy of Ukraine and Russia!

3. The pound is a shared asset it is as much Scotland’s pound as it is the pound for the rest of the UK and I am pretty sure that if Scotland votes yes a Westminster government would want us to take our fair share of liabilities – well that’s fine but we also need to ensure that we have our fair share of assets as well. Your point is well made - we both need to put our houses in order - and I'd very much like to see Ireland ditch the Euro in favour of GBP, as I believe the majority of that country would right now 

Finally.......

George Osborne, the Chancellor, Ed Balls the shadow chancellor and Alistair Carmichael, the Secretary of State for Scotland, have indicated that they would not support Scotland staying within the currency if they vote for independence next year. and you know what I think of that shower - all mouth and no trews!

Do you consider those opposing a shared currency after independence are trying to “frighten” Scottish people into voting no at the referendum or why don't they just openly give a definitive " No to currency sharing". YES! and because they can't, and they know it! Simple as that!
David A
John Kelly John Kelly
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

Peter C & David A

As you know I am hoping that Scotland will reject independence, however if the vote is for leaving the Union then the Scottish people should be aware of the following facts;

The North Sea Oil and Gas that Scotland can claim title to(certainly, very far to all of it, as laid out by the UN laws of the high seas) is a diminishing asset that is projected to become non viable from a commercial recovery viewpoint by about 2030/5

The Barnett Formula that Scotland has depended on to subsidise "Free" University education for Native born Scots, and for Students from all other EU states except England will end immediately the document of separation is signed.

The Pound Sterling will not be the continuing currency of an Independent Scotland for two reasons;

1) The English people who have paid for the Barnett Formula for decades through their taxes see the Scots as ungrateful and churlish would not stand for the Bank of England becoming Scotland's Bank of last resort   and having to bale it out if the Scottish economy collapsed.

2) The Scottish people would be very unhappy about the Bank of England having the power to set Scotland's interest rates and control the money supply(quantitative easing, revaluing/devaluing of the currency).

The Bank of Scotland/HBoS and RBS/Nat West are debtors to the English Parliament and Scottish investors, Business's and mortgage holders would all remain subject to the dictates of the UK treasury, If an Independent Scotland wanted to take control of Scotland's Banks then they would have to pay off the amount that the British Government spent to save those Banks from collapse.

The Spanish Government has stated that it will oppose an Independent Scotland Joining the EU as this might trigger the break up of the Spanish nation itself which is currently refusing the wealthy regions of Catalunia and Galicia referenda on their own independence aspirations,and another couple of states would support Spain's objections, so the Euro as a fall back currency for a Scotland denied access to a Sterling currency Union is a non starter.

The balance of trade between England and Scotland is currently free from import and export tariffs, If an independent Scotland wanted to trade with the remainder of the UK or indeed any member state of the EU it would have to set up a trade agreement with Brussels and agree to all the legislation that has stifled UK business for nearly fifty years.

my message to the Scottish voters is all that glitters is not gold, so vote with your head not your heart.
David A David A
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

John,

My response to the very good points you make, bearing in mind my equal desire to remain part of the Union.

Peter C & David A

As you know I am hoping that Scotland will reject independence, however if the vote is for leaving the Union then the Scottish people should be aware of the following facts;

The North Sea Oil and Gas that Scotland can claim title to(certainly, very far to all of it, as laid out by the UN laws of the high seas) is a diminishing asset that is projected to become non viable from a commercial recovery viewpoint by about 2030/5 I agree 

The Barnett Formula that Scotland has depended on to subsidise "Free" University education for Native born Scots, and for Students from all other EU states except England will end immediately the document of separation is signed. very good point

The Pound Sterling will not be the continuing currency of an Independent Scotland for two reasons;

1) The English people who have paid for the Barnett Formula for decades through their taxes see the Scots as ungrateful and churlish would not stand for the Bank of England becoming Scotland's Bank of last resort   and having to bale it out if the Scottish economy collapsed. not 'becoming' (already is) but 'continuing as'!

2) The Scottish people would be very unhappy about the Bank of England having the power to set Scotland's interest rates and control the money supply(quantitative easing, revaluing/devaluing of the currency). unhappy or not, they would in reality, have no choice, especially with the likely total rejection of more refugees bogged down into a Euro already showing signs of cracking up! 

The Bank of Scotland/HBoS and RBS/Nat West are debtors to the English Parliament and Scottish investors, Business's and mortgage holders would all remain subject to the dictates of the UK treasury, If an Independent Scotland wanted to take control of Scotland's Banks then they would have to pay off the amount that the British Government spent to save those Banks from collapse. which would be futile, impossible and cause misery to Scotland for generations to come. 

The Spanish Government has stated that it will oppose an Independent Scotland Joining the EU as this might trigger the break up of the Spanish nation itself which is currently refusing the wealthy regions of Catalunia and Galicia referenda on their own independence aspirations,and another couple of states would support Spain's objections, so the Euro as a fall back currency for a Scotland denied access to a Sterling currency Union is a non starter. precisely point I was making above, if Scotland tried to add to the load the Euro is already creaking under! 

The balance of trade between England and Scotland is currently free from import and export tariffs, If an independent Scotland wanted to trade with the remainder of the UK or indeed any member state of the EU it would have to set up a trade agreement with Brussels and agree to all the legislation that has stifled UK business for nearly fifty years. effectively, Scotland would be making a rod for her own back! 

my message to the Scottish voters is all that glitters is not gold, so vote with your head not your heart. - as is mine! final question, in the current Economic Climate who in their right mind would contemplate underwriting a new currency for Scotland? Answer few, least of all Europe. America might try, though, and then Scotland would face the position of eternal subservience to the US$ (as with all the other $ currencies, as well as crippling trade disadvantage) Here in Canada, for instance, we are forbidden to buy cars etc in the US, because they are a third cheaper there, and even those we build are sold more cheaply in the US!
David A
Peter. C Peter. C
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David A David A
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

You wait! After the influx post January of more foreign hordes courtesy of David Cameron's, Theresa May's, Clegg's, Miliband's, the BBC's and the Judiciary's  lip service to Brussels, Salmond will be laughing all the way to Stirling Bridge!!!

The icing on the cake will be the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn! That is how this gigantic farce is playing out right now to packed houses!

After which we will all feel the cold! That is how totally blinkered and stupid our politicians have become. We need some real fighters now to stand up for Britain and our people, before we disintegrate into an oblivious mass of nothingness... and we need now an intelligent, benevolent, firm and independent dictator to guide our island races, and genuinely look after their interests by ridding us of the vile and corrupt bureaucrats and beaurocracies which abound like maggots compounding our misery, and sadly there is none, except, possibly Boris! He seems to be the only individual I can think of, capable of envisioning and appreciating the larger picture!
David A
John Kelly John Kelly
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Re: The vote on Scotland is becoming interesting

David A

If Scotland votes for independence can we have an assurance that all Scottish MP's currently sitting at Westminster, who represent Scottish constituencies or reside in Scotland while representing constituencies elsewhere in the UK, will immediately cease to be an MP of the Parliament in Westminster and will be barred from standing for election to Parliament in any constituency in England Wales and Northern Ireland.
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