The suicide of the Labour party

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John Kelly John Kelly
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The suicide of the Labour party

The Labour party grew out of the realisation that when the worker understands the power of his contribution to the wealth of employer he can actually effect and share in the profitability of his employers business if the workers unite to improve their lot through a single voice.

Paradoxically as a former Tory I have much empathy with the morals and ambitions of those long dead social reformers such as Kier Hardy who fought so hard to improve the lives of the working classes!
 However once the socialist movement expanded from the factory floor to the floor of the House of Commons it was exposed to the intrigue and dishonesty of the world of politics which is founded on the principle of absolute corruption, ultimately corrupting everyone absolutely, it should be noted that successive Lab9ur politicians have embraced that liturgy with open arms as long as they were the direct beneficiaries.

Every time Labour have won power they have allowed power to corrupt it's plans and consequently to fail the very people who put them in power.

Now over a hundred years on we are witnessing the Labour party tearing itself apart to such a degree that whoever wins the leadership contest will set the seal of unelctability on the Labour movement for the foreseeable future perhaps forever!
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

John K

We can argue about the timing of corruption which plagues all political party's not only the Labour party.

The inception of the demise of the Labour party begun the day the Labour party allowed itself to be infiltrated by the Tory in sheep's clothing that being the War Criminal Tony Blair...... The rich got richer under Blair & Brown than they had under Thatcher (Old Crone)...........

Tony Blair and his Blairites that are the ones who are ripping the Labour party apart by not accepting their own memberships desires to elect a leader that should get all Labour MP's to fall in behind regardless if they agree with their membership  decision.

Say what you like about Jeremy Corbyn and his policies or his chances of being elected, they are to my mind required to not try overruling the membership or it's duly elected leader but are required to back the leader and hold the Tories to account.

If they want to remove or plot it should be done following rules and procedures not in open rebellion in the tabloids.

I think I am right in saying 180 refuse to serve under Jeremy Corbyn and after trying to prevent him on to the 1st ballot where he thrashed his opponents they have now tried to depose him and he is likely to get a bigger majority tomorrow but still they say they won't serve under a duly elected leader to hold the Tories to account .......

To my mind they should resign or allow another party member to stand against them in their constituency and let those who support them say whether they can remain their Labour representatives or not.

180 MP's cannot be allowed to depose a leader without using rules and procedures nor should they be allowed to bring the Labour movement to its knees.

They say Jeremy Corbyn is a lovely man but is unelectable

David Cameron was a Lying Twisted Evil person who's policies took many to the point of taking their own life's.

So we can only elect men/women who bring and do Evil but can't elected a thoroughly decent man or woman just because he is a Socialist.

Capitalisim has been proven to be 100% Corrupt and has most certainly proven to have Spectacularly FAILED after the BANKSTERS were allowed to get to big to fail.

What happen to the sound bite about a better  more caring form of Capitalism!!!

Poppycock......it's just Capitalists keeping Capitalism alive by utter Bull Shi*

Nothing has changed since the BANKSTERS failed us all but there has been a total cover up of the FAILED CAPITALIST SYSYEM
Peter C
John Kelly John Kelly
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

Peter C

Corbyn has won again with an increased majority, however exit poles conducted by Labour indicate that party members who were registered prior to the 2015 leadership contest did not vote for Corbyn.
As an interested and impartial observer I have to question the motive's of those who paid £30 for the right to join up and vote!
How many will vote for Labour in 2020? How many have voted for Corbyn in order to keep Labour in opposition? Is their any honesty in politics? I think not!
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

A traditional exit poll as happens at a general election is not possible for elections where there are no physical polling stations.

Here is a YouGov poll......



As you can see from the graph above Corbyn made gains in 17 area's.

Smith on the other hand was only stronger in 3 area's however the samples between 18-24 year olds they only asked 55 people

In Scotland again only 58 people were asked.

I wonder if a larger sample might have shown Corbyn was actually stronger in these two area's as well.

I don't know if polls are a good have these days after so many got the 2015 General Election so very wrong when they all indicated a "To close to call" result.

I would suggest that Jeremy Corbyn has held out an olive branch to those 172 Labour MP's who tried to depose him and failed miserably and if any of them refuse to serve in his cabinet they should be put up for re-selection

Never mind being Mr nice guy to those who had their long knifes out.
Time to fall into line and support the Labour memberships duly elected (twice) leader Jeremy Corbyn and hold the Tories to account.

In fighting must stop forthwith and get behind Corbyn and if he fails in the next General Election then he will step aside and the general public will have shown if they agree with the direction the Labour party is being taken and pass judgement on Corbyn.

The bottom line is Corbyn is leader until the next election and there is no way to depose him now so support him and see how it pans out of it goes well all the good for Labour supporters if it goes belly up the rebels win control back.
Peter C
Mary S Mary S
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I will now join the Labour Party and will vote Labour in the next election. I have waited 50 years, my entire voting life for a socialist government. I have always been a Labour supporter and was very hopeful when Blair won power but although his government did do some excellent things the Iraq war and the intervention in Afghanistan was a massive mistake and illegal.  Blair proved to be as arrogant and omnipotent as Thatcher. Also it was very disappointing to see Brown follow the same economics policies as Thatcher, which prevail to this day and caused the banking crisis. The bankers still have not been bought to book!
I hope that Jeremy can, somehow, unite the party, I suspect it will be one hell of a struggle but it has to be done in order to win next time. It is imperative that we have an opposition that can challenge this government. Cameron, the spineless, lazy, useless lump has gone, thank goodness.  I heard a remark recently about Cameron - he was asked about his rather small majority and he said - "not a problem for me, I am now on the board". I always did think he was under the illusion that he had a right to be PM - that was his ambition and he made it - all utterly revolting. Osborne and Johnson are waiting in the wings to see May fail - the thought of either of them in power makes me feel physically sick! I think both Osborne and Johnson believe that they should be in power - it is their right just like Cameron, they too think they should be 'on the board'.  I doubt that Jeremy Corbyn would not think like that - he has principles and ambitions which are about making the country function for everyone - socialist principles. The fact that he is a socialist also does not make him anti-capitalist as the press keep harping on about - he just wants capitalism to be fair for all and not just the wealthy few. The press and the establishment absolutely loathe and fear him and continue to berate, lambast and pour out the usual venom about him and John McDonnell and anyone who supports him. He has risen about most of the media remarks sensibly offering no response and I just hope he continues to do more of the same and continue to keep spelling out the Labour Party policies. The one thing he must do is be more challenging of the government - not respond to May's pathetic attempts at humour and undermining and really confront them. They are not particularly strong - they are hiding discontent in their own party and running around like headless chickens about Brexit - they are divided themselves.
I think there is a general feeling across the western world that people are sick of the inequality and working their guts out for wealthy lazy b.....ds like Philip Green lounging around in the Med on his £10 million yacht caring nothing for all those BHS workers who have lost their jobs. No sign of him getting the pension 'sorted'! I think there are changes afoot if the people can dislodge the old and mainstream parties - it time for the old lot to go and the new to get a chance to make substantial and necessary changes the western world needs and very very soon!
David A David A
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

In reply to this post by John Kelly
I think, Mary, you will discover that Jeremy Corbyn arrived too late for the Labour Party after those complete tossers the Millibands between them put paid to any resuscitation into this dying dinosaur, some would say already dead, and the rudderless caucus reacting like headless chickens, while blinkered Theresa May has the luxury of decidely lame humour with her jibes and jabs from the sidelines - she really doesn't do a very good impersonation of Maggie, even if she thinks she does, and I have yet to see substance in her policies, if she has any, but I fear she will drift along wherever the flow takes her, but I fear Jeremy's goose has lost its feathers and will probably succumb ere long!

Labour's day, I fear is done. They blew it in Scotland, and now they've blown it in the rest of the UK!
David A
Mary S Mary S
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

Goodness, David, I do hope you are wrong. Political parties have been known to rise from the ashes. They were out of power for a long time during Thatcher's time but did return albeit as Tory lites under Blair. I think there is a movement across the western world for change - the left and right in Europe are significant although not getting into power and I was amazed that Bernie Sanders was even visible during the recent campaigns in the US.  There is so much inequality in the west and austerity has served to anger the public and they are sick and tired of the effects of globalisation and the greed of the wealthy.  it is time for change and it may well come maybe not with Jeremy Corbyn but sooner or later. I do not think the Labour Party is dead - it took so long for it to establish itself with the likes of Kier Hardy [my Mum was dragged along by my Granddad to hear him when she was a child]. Inequality in those days was of course much more noticeable but it is relative.  My Granddad was a guard on the railways and a keen socialist and I am proud to say that I follow in his footsteps  - he would be inordinately pleased if he knew! I am very fearful of the right, also rising in popularity across Europe - the Hungarian president is terrifying and Marine Le Pen and her ilk make my skin crawl.  We need to combat those political types!
As for May - I think you may well be correct especially if she remains in power. I know you are a fan of Thatcher and that is where you and I part company. I loathed her with her bullying ways and May does not have the same personality certainly in terms of her charisma and power.  I think too that she has no policies and has tried to distract us by her support for grammar schools and it will not work. The public want to see action and as yet she is like a damp squib. The only pleasure I have from her rise is the back of Cameron and Osborne and hopefully the fall of Johnson.
Labour is finished in Scotland as the SNP is left-wing and has nothing to gain from having Labour MPs.
I do hope you are wrong as we need a credible opposition if only to hold the government to account.  
I see that various people have started to post again. I contacted Nabble and was informed they no longer exist.  The site seems to be operating, long may it continue.  I look forward to seeing more posts from everyone - Peter, John you and all the other regulars!
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

This post was updated on .
I would like to add my contribution in the "death" of the Labour party in Scotland.

Firstly, the SNP were and still are referred to as the Tartan Tories so are not so leftist as one might think it believe!!
The SNP recognised and rightly so that Labour and socialist idea's is where the power to be elected in Scotland lay so adopted many Labour policies and it worked to a greater or lesser degree.

The big swing from Labour to SNP was born out having a Tory government imposed on a very strong socialist Scottish population and yes it has to be said it started with Maggie Thatchers (Old Crone) government which was closely followed by the Tory all but in name Tony Blair (War Criminal).......

Labour as a socialist government died from the day Tony Blair took over.
He picked up Thatchers baton and all you have to look at one simple fact which is ......

The Rich got Richer under Blair's government than did under Thatcher!!

Now....can Labour win back the Scottish people who once have Labour a stranglehold on scotland!!

Yes they can and I speak as an disillusioned Labour voter who was once part of the Trade Union and movement speak to many disillusioned Labour voters like myself and many bought into voting SNP and go for independence to rid our socialist country of what we perceived as an imposed Tory government in us.

Since the our English cousins have voted to leave the EU are more inclined to want to remain with rUK rather than leave the 300 year Union only to have the SNP tie is to a Union with the EU.
The SNP want to un-shakle us from Westminster control only to be shackled to the diabolical EU.

The SNP are using the Brexit result as an excuse for a second referendum and if they go for it...... I say let them as they will lose BIG TIME because most Scots want to remain with rUK so if Labour want to appeal to Scottish voters come over us more control over our own affairs and with Jeremy Corbyn's socialist Labour movement he can regain Scotland as labour.
However,  Jeremy must be careful not to swing to far left or he will lose those who vote Tory but might have voted Labour.

The Labour MP's who tried in vain to topple Jeremy must now get behind Jeremy and see how things pan out at least until the next election is over where Corbyn has either failed spectacularly or succeeded spectacularly, they must also serve in Jeremy's cabinet to show they have accepted the memberships second endorsement of Corbyn and now focus on taking on May's government.

So in my opinion Labour is anything but Dead...... but Corbyn just might be the rebirth of a true Socialist movement.

No need to whisper you are a socialist and the capitalist are in fear that their hard work to make Socialist a dirty word much like the Americans did with Communist.

To my mind and any person who have seen a drop in their living standard due to the FAILED CAPITALIST system through the corruption in those trustworthy BANKSTERS!!

It is CAPITALISM that is the dirty word.
Peter C
David A David A
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

In reply to this post by John Kelly
I'll go further. If I have to choose between May and Corbyn (what a thought), record wise, I favour Corbyn! So what am I saying? Simply that the days of party are, in my book over. I would like to see a revival of Ancient Greece and Athens under Xenophon whereby individuals were elected by a public vote to serve in government, the nine presidents elected by tribal vote and this state of affairs could be reviewed and individuals endorsed, if they pulled their weight, or kicked out if they didn't! That to me, seems a much better formula for government in our volatile world! and it worked! I quote from Hammond's History of Greece to 322 BC. "the city of Athena had many outstanding qualities. It gave its citizens freedom in politics, speech, education, law, and business.It fed its poor, and it gave them self-respect. It conducted the relations of daily life with humanity (philanthropia) towards the metics and slaves, who were admitted to many forms of family and state worship and received protection under the law. It led the world in culture commerce and capitalism." so there!
David A
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

David

I can't agree the day of the party is over not nearly but I would agree there is movement amongst tribal voting.

Tony Blair (War Criminal) looked and found the new world of power in the centre ground of politics and the Tories under Cameron moved rather quickly to try grab that centre ground.

However, I believe it has led to no choice in political party's and both factions cLabour and Tory have favoured the rich and believed in the "Trickle" down to the rest of us mere mortals but it has been proven that.....

The Rich just stash their wealth and just get more Greedy while the rest struggle month to month.

You said.......

"It led the world in culture commerce and capitalism." so there!"

Yes I agree but the form of Capitalism you described sounded a much more caring form of Capitalism.

Which is a far cry from the CAPITALISM we have today.

We hear from David Cameron's Tories that a new caring form of Capitalism needs to be found........

I see nothing in the Tories to move to that "better" form of Capitalism....

Do you??
Peter C
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

In reply to this post by David A
David

I do like the sound of your suggested

Ancient Greece and Athens under Xenophon whereby individuals were elected by a public vote to serve in government.

However, I am not up to speed on the Ancient Greece & Athens or how the were governed
Peter C
Mary S Mary S
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

Peter - I, too,  do not think Labour is dead. I also agree that Jeremy must not go too far to the left as he will really frighten off the old Labour supporters and any voter fed up with Tory and cLabour capitalism, and with Blairism which was Tory by another name in many respects, but not all! His government did some good things but they have been overshadowed by the illegal war [for which he has never been bought to book - he is a war criminal and should stand trial along with Bush Jnr.]
I also think Tory capitalism has failed and the Labour Party under Corbyn could offer a realistic and workable system to replace the casino in the city, regulation of the financial and banking system and reduce the Thatcher [failed] vision of the free-market to the dustbin of history, where it belongs. We could have a decent NHS, education, social care, transport system and hopefully a sustainable and more equal society.  A workforce that is skilled and paid appropriately without the need for tax credits which allow employers to pay low wages and make larger profits.
I know there are many doubters and critics who harp on about the Corbyn politics as out of date and unrealistic but it is time for change. The sooner May and her minions are gone the better. Brexit needs to be executed and a lot of hard work needing to be done to support the UK and its future. May and her ministers are simply not up to the job and are currently scurrying around desperately trying to work out what to do and behaving like headless chickens - putting off the inevitable by trying to distract the electorate by putting forward policies, not in their mandate, to build more grammar schools.  [Yet another policy that is fundamentally flawed!]
Peter. C Peter. C
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Mary

It is a sad fact but it is the reality of the damage that Thatcher started the rot within traditionally Labour supporters when she started the sell off the council housing stock and that was when she turned council families who once would only vote Labour into Tory voters because those who bought their homes thought they were better than their next door neighbours who hadn't bought their homes.

This was when once Labour men or women joined the......
Greedy Me! Me! Me! Society and started to vote Tory.

It is these people that I hope Jeremy Corbyn doesn't veer to far to the left as they like their self belief in themselves that buying a council house at knock down prices makes them Tory voters but they are the people they need to convince to return to Labour while at the same time keep them happy with their so-called "status" of being better than council tenants.

I have already spoke about what Corbyn needs to do to win Scottish voter back to the fold.

The other's he can win are the Labour voters who swung to UKIP by mean of producing a manifesto promise for Labour's version of Brexit is.

All Labour needs to do is cherry pick the UKIP policies on taking back control on immigration by means of a points system for every country so it is a fairer system than what we have at the moment that favours EU migrants and punishes the rest of the world.
There is nothing as blatantly Racist than having an immigration policy that favours certain country ie; EU country's.......it also shuts the door on possible better talent from outside the EU.

I am hoping Jeremy Corbyn has a big speech to come and outlines the way forward and that addresses the rudderless party and show he is a good captain and can steer Labour back to power and prove Socialism with a tad of caring & compassionate capitlism can be merged for the Good of all..... Super Rich, the Filthy Rich included but no more can this country or the world be controlled with the.....

Trickle Down for the Super Rich & Filthy Rich....... It has had its day and has only served those at the top of the money tree.
Peter C
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

In reply to this post by Mary S
I just read this

"Labour conference backs call for possible referendum on final Brexit deal"

That puts paid to Corbyn winning back the brexiteers that went to UKIP.

Just when you get hope that Corbyn can make socialism work.

Why oh why didn't Corbyn stick to his stance during his leadership challenge with Owen Smith where Corbyn said the party should accept the Brexit vote, and focus on getting the best possible deal.
Peter C
John Kelly John Kelly
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

Because Corbyn is to politics what a traffic warden is to normal society, a person who suddenly finds themselves with a degree of power over others that in normal life has otherwise evaded them.
Mary S Mary S
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In reply to this post by Peter. C
Crazy idea - maybe some people at the conference and not Corbyn. It was Smith [a no-mark'] who was going on about a 2nd referendum so hopefully that stupid idea will sink without trace!
I absolutely agree it all about getting Brexit started and a good deal for the UK.
I think the idea of cherry picking from UKIP should be done with great care - some of their policies were totally un-socialist - I remember reading one of their manifestos and it was very right-wing. They should definitely broach immigration as it is a major reason why Brexit won and it needs to be discussed sensibly. I have said this before - we should not be importing staff in order to reduce wages and to avoid educating and training up our own - this has always been a huge beef for me. We should be spending money on training and skilling-up our own whether they be old or young and then we would not have to import cheap labour. We should make it worthwhile for doctors and nurses to stay in this country and then we wouldn't need to employ imported staff in the NHS and of course very expensive agency staff. The same applies to social care, elderly care and education - we have changed the face of public services by becoming reliant on imported labour, as well as starving all public services and infrastructure of money [ one of Osborne's brilliant ideas about balancing the books - it worked so well!] - this must change and Brexit is a great opportunity to do so and a great stance for the Labour Party to take on board - it would be popular.
The Labour Party now has a great opportunity to use Brexit to introduce some socialist policies and get the country back on it's feet with a growth in equality, good tax receipts from reasonable wages and raising taxes from those can afford it. They could stop tax evasion and stop foreigners buying up property as investments - these people should be made to pay a huge tax for the benefit of having property here.  This could help with house pricing. The housing bubble that Carney and Osborne have divised, in order to promote growth when all it did was raise house prices and look like growth in the economy. It has been a disaster for London and the South East and spreading like a cancer. Building has not kept pace with demand and prices are too high for the average person to buy or rent. They have managed to decimate communities.  They want people to buy, as house owners are likely to vote Tory,  so are not keen to build social housing. Frankly they are a disgrace and May will not change those policies or at least I doubt it. Another great opportunity for the Labour Party if and when the stop squabbling and behave like adults and unite!
At present power has not corrupted Jeremy Corbyn - he has waited all his political life to put his socialist ideas into practice - he probably doesn't want to compromise. He has always stuck to his strong beliefs and he is well known for dislike of inequality, our elitist and class ridden society and very importantly, poking our noses into other countries' business and involving ourselves in unnecessary wars, especially if they are illegal!  He is an honest and honourable man but he will have to compromise if he is to keep the Labour Party as one - otherwise the PLC would rather see it fail than accommodate some of his ideas - they are solidly establishment and can see their future consultancies and directorships going down the drain if the socialist policies are not watered down. I can understand why he doesn't want to dilute his policies when he is in position to show the country how these could be so beneficial to our society, given that these have been held for so long and never heard or given any credence. He, now, finds himself able to broadcast these ideas and he wouldn't want to change them.  If I am correct, it is more likely that his position as leader of the party and the power associated with it will make him less corruptable, and less likely to go to his head and possibly make him more inflexible and uncompromising - this could of course lead to his downfall, along with his other enemies.
Corbyn's enemies are within his own party, and of course, the media which is mostly right-wing. They will both continue to try to destroy him and those that support him. I hope they fail and Jeremy Corbyn gets a chance to be PM and exercise some of his democratic socialism - what a change it would be after all these years of destructive conservatism and capitalism that has failed so badly!
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

Mary

I 100% agree with all you said here.

When I said to cherry pick UKIP policies , I meant only key things such as immigration and their strong desire to bring back power and claim our right to govern our own country through accepting the Brexit result and produce what Labour's Brexit is to be.
You are right to many other UKIP policies are right wing.
This is why if Jeremy Corbyn gets what Labour's Brexit  will look like I believe the Labour voters who voted UKIP will return to Labour.

I must say it was a treat to read your posts and your vision for a socialist government under Jeremy Corbyn and as we both have said......

Capitalism has had its day and has FAILED and only served the Super Rich/Filthy Rich at the expense of all others.
Capitalism stands for all that Thatcher stood for......

Greedy Me! Me! Me! Society

As you rightly say, socialism has never truly be tried, I hope it gets its day some time very soon.
Peter C
Mary S Mary S
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

Thank you, Peter. We do tend to be in accord and are both staunch Labour supporter and socialists. I really don't think all is lost and hope that the party gets its act together and unites - if that happens, we stand a chance of having a Labour government. I am very keen to remain optimistic and refuse to take notice of the pessimists.
I also think that sooner or later their will be some sort of union in the party as I think their memory of the Gang of Four is still very fresh and the disaster that followed.  Hopefully the MP's who don't like Jeremy will put up and shut up after all they stand to lose out.
Anyway I intend to keep on posting and look forward to this site staying put. I have heard nothing to the contrary and nabble did not respond to my email.
John Kelly John Kelly
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

The Labour party conference has seen the newly re-elected Mr Corbin quietly sneak through a policy to hold a second EU referendum, to abandon any pretence at controlling migration from the EU or elsewhere and reaffirmed his determination to institute unlimited government borrowing to shore up the NHS, to renationalise the railways as and when the contracts of existing franchisees come to an end.

What  Mr Corbyn has not said is that his ability to carry out Government support for already partly or totally privatised organisation's would contravene EU law, so assuming he was successful at forcing a 2nd referendum and assuming the result was to remain, then his plans would be severely prejudiced by the power of Brussels.

Mr Corbyn has pledged to introduce a living wage of £10.00 per hour, and this on top of all the expenditure listed above, how will he pay for these measures? By more and more borrowing, how will he repay that borrowing? By increasing taxes!
Who in our population pay the greatest percentage of their income in taxes, the working classes, the middle classes and the upper middle classes,  not the wealthiest earners because their numbers could never generate sufficient revenues to fund such a spending program!

The fiscal logic of such promises has more holes in it than the finest Emmantile cheese, it proposes to use the same logic that a desperate individual on the lowest income would employ when consulting a loan shark in order to survive from day to day.


David A David A
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Re: The suicide of the Labour party

Ahem! your comparison would make a few Emmentalers blush!
David A
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