Supreme Court decision on Brexit article 50

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Peter. C Peter. C
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Supreme Court decision on Brexit article 50

Delivering the ruling, Supreme Court president Lord Neuberger said that..........

“UK ministers are not legally compelled to consult the devolved legislatures before triggering Article 50.”

I will start by saying i fully agree that we voted as one country namely the UK and will the four nations that make up the UK we must accept that Westminster is the superior government and it is Westminster's position to deal with the UK's Brexit from the EU.

However, i will add that this decision will only embolden those who wish to leave the 1707 Union with rUK.

It may trigger a constitutional crisis and may possibly bring about a 2nd Scottish Independence referendum.

If the UK is to survive I am off the view that the UK must move to a Federal UK with 4 equal partner's that have a veto on major constitutional issue that affect all four nations.

Peter C
John Kelly John Kelly
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Re: Supreme Court decision on Brexit article 50

This post was updated on .
Peter C

I totally disagree with your support of the UK moving to a federal system.
What has the existing devolved system actually achieved, it has brought about division between the four people's of our nation by allowing those national socialist parties in Scotland and Wales and unjustifiably allowing a terrorist group  in  Northern Ireland that seek to destroy the Union to exert power over the citizens of the UK who reside in the national regions.
No sovereign nation can govern itself by dividing the role of Government to the regions, as the vested interests of regional politicians will always reduce the efficiency of Government overall, while at the same time vastly increasing the cost of Government for all taxpayers by over duplicating every area of public expenditure on provision of public services, by taking control of salary increments, by setting regional pensions scales for local officials and removing central scrutiny control of imprudent public spending from the hands of the elected national Government.
It is also extremely unfair that the politicians running the UKregions can seek more and more autonomous  power over their region, which is denied to the elected MP's of other regions of the UK but seek to influence the life choices of UK citizens residing outside of their region through their regional MP's.
dave 1 dave 1
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Re: Supreme Court decision on Brexit article 50

John I have to agree with your comments.This United Kingdom is no longer United.It should never have been divided into individual parts.It was a very bad move on the part of Government.Or did the directive come from Brussels?
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: Supreme Court decision on Brexit article 50

Dave 1

I am not sure where you got the idea that the UK was ever one country that had been divided into four parts.

Although the United Kingdom as a sovereign state, is a country, England, Scotland, Wales, and to a lesser degree, Northern Ireland, are also regarded as countries, though they are not sovereign states.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have devolved self-government and quite rightly so!!

Stating the obvious here but I think you need to go back into the history books but Scotland was once an individual nation as were Ireland and Wales.

It was not until 1707 when Scotland (against the wishes of the Scottish people) entered into a Union with England.

Ireland became part of the United Kingdom in 1801.

The whole of Wales was annexed by England and incorporated within the English legal system under the Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542.

The UK is nothing more than four nations joined by a Union just as the UK is a one of 28 nations joined in a Union called the EU.

The UK as one nation is in the process to sever it's ties to the Union with the EU.

Scotland, Wales & N.Ireland have the same right to leave the Union with the UK/England.

It was Westminster that gave the powers of devolved government to Scotland in an attempt to quell their fear of the Scots rising calls for Independence after OIL was discovered and made recoverable by new technologies.

This was not a directive from Brussels!!

If you believe the UK is a divided nation at the moment, I can tell you this......

If the UK does not move to a Federal system with four EQUAL partner's, you can be assured Scotland will leave the  1707 Union with England.

It is true Westminster can withdraw the devolved power's at anytime but should they do so would create a serious rebellion and England could or would possibly find itself with another nation on its border like the Southern part of Ireland, which has seen many trouble's.

I am sure a move to a Federal system of EQUALS is far more preferred way forward than possibly more trouble's!!

I would like to hear your own and John K's opinion's as to, what is to be feared by renewing the 1707 Union with EQUAL nation's.

After all is that not the very reason why the UK as one country has voted to leave the EU........
To many power's given away and we feel dictated to by Brussels, this is why Westminster/England has to much power by sheer numbers of citizen's over the other 3 nation's put together.

In my opinion the English have nothing to lose and everything to gain as the English people would have the same devolved power's to control their own country as Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland have.
Peter C
John Kelly John Kelly
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Re: Supreme Court decision on Brexit article 50

Peter C

Firstly I will reiterate my position on devolved Government, I am firmly opposed the the whole concept of devolved Government. There can only be one Governing body in a sovereign state, to say that each component region must be treated as equals would require that each region contribute equally to the state treasury, not only is that not the case at present but it is patently obvious that they could never under any circumstances find the capital resources to do so.

The pre-devolution system comprised :

Central Government which collects all taxes that then facilitate the funding of all public services, the maintenance of law and order, the court sytem and the defence of the realm.

Local authorities who depend on the limited powers gifted by parliament are established at County level and where appropriate metropolitan Councils for very large urbanisation's, below this are the borough Councils and parish councils, all these authorities are based on a system of subordination to the authority immediately superior to their own with ultimate power eminating down from central Government.
This system retains the link between the people and local decision makers at local levels and the ability of central government to restrict the power of local politicians from overstepping their remit.

Devolved Government allows the regionally elected Government to abuse their powers to the detriment of the regional populations by overspending in certain areas of policy that may not benefit all the people equally, for example the efficiency of the NHS in Wales which lags far behind the performance of the NHS elsewhere in the UK.

Devolved Government adds another layer of expenditure that has to be funded through taxation and irrationally in the UK model there is the anomaly of the Barnett formula subsidy that unfairly penalises the majority of the population who live in England, this Labour initiative was only supposed to be a temporary subsidy that would exist only until the devolved Governmental systems established themselves, but temporary normally becomes permanent under Labour.

Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: Supreme Court decision on Brexit article 50

John K

You said......

"Firstly I will reiterate my position on devolved Government, I am firmly opposed to the whole concept of devolved Government."

I could sympathies with your opposition to devolved government in the other smaller nations in the Union with England.

However, that genie is out the bottle and is highly unlikely to be put back into the bottle.
Any attempt to do so would only make Westminster/England look like a bullying Empire of old, dictating to smaller partner's within the Union.

You make good argument to oppose Devolution which only works if and it's a Big "IF" all partner's are willing to remain in the status quo within the present Union with such a large controlling party (England).

After all we as the UK have just voted to leave the Union with 27 other nation's namely the EU for very much the same issues as the three smaller nation's with in the UK such as........

Control and direction the UK is being dragged by the larger body within the Union with rEU.

As I said the genie is out the bottle and because it is out there is only one way to keep the UK together which is......

A federal union between all nation's or more and more powers being devolved to the smaller nation's which is more or less the next best thing to a Federal UK.

Peter C
Mary S Mary S
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Re: Supreme Court decision on Brexit article 50

I have an issue with devolving local authorities being totally responsible for raising all their own money.  I think that this allows central government from taking any responsibility for public services and when and if, their are problems they will be blamed not the lack of support from government. It is a very sneaky way of not taking responsibility for anything! A lack of resources, whether it be in Social Care,  roads, libraries etc.,can be blamed on local government rather than central government starvation of funding!
David A David A
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Re: Supreme Court decision on Brexit article 50

Literally buck-passing!
David A
David A David A
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Re: Supreme Court decision on Brexit article 50

In reply to this post by Peter. C
Let's keep the Fed out of this debate!
David A
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: Supreme Court decision on Brexit article 50

Perhaps you can qualify your request to have the Federal kept out this debate!!

Peter C
Peter. C Peter. C
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Mary & David

Speaking from a Scottish point of view the buck passing/devolution powers being passed to the Scottish government is most certainly welcome up here in Scotland and the more power's given to the Scottish government the less we can complain about Westminster/English MP's imposing rule upon us and we can vote into power the SNP, Labour or Tories etc and get a government to run our country as we see fit.

Any one who thinks that devolution can be withdrawn and not bring about a National Constitutional Crisis brought about the three devolved countries losing their powers is kidding themselves and living in cloud Cuckoo land.

The genie is out the bottle and there is only one of two out comes.......

1. More devolved powers!
2. Federal Union!

Peter C
Mary S Mary S
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Re: Supreme Court decision on Brexit article 50

Hi Peter,
I take your point about the devolution of government to Scotland,Wales and N. Ireland. I did go off point making reference to local government rather than for the other countries in the Union, which is different. I do approve of the devolution of Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland as long as they all stay in the Union! The devolution of local authorities is about passing the buck but the same can't be said for the devolved government Scotland. I think maybe using the word devolution was not correct maybe localism would be more suitable. The facts are however the same, localism will help the government abdicate responsiblity for lack of funding and resources and blame local authorities for shortfalls claiming they have not spent thier funding wisely.  
It makes sense for Scotland to govern itself as it has a different set of circumstances and has a different history and culture from England, many differences but many similarities if you like. Hopefully we will continue to remain the UK.
John Kelly John Kelly
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Peter C

I would immediately remove all devolved powers and return those powers to central Government
All devolved Government does is provide a platform for untalented individuals who for the most part would be better off working as traffic wardens or lollypop ladies where their quest for power over others could do little damage, an added bonus to such a move would be that they would then be paid commensurate to their abilities.
As an example of the damage that devolved Government can achieve we only have to look at Belgium where a devolved region was able to delay the enaction of a trade agreement between all the EU member states would be able to access to the Canadian market for months.
Another case of the tail wagging the dog.
Devolution = Chaos= Mismanagement=Financial Waste & Corruption.
Peter. C Peter. C
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John K

You're very apt description of those people who run our devolved parliament's, I would say that those running central government at Westminster come under the very same description....... so you see it matters not and changes nothing about the need for devolved government's, what is needed is a better caliber of people able to carry out the daily business of running a government.

It's all very well saying what you would do "if" you had the power to carry out your thoughts and let's assume you could carry out your retraction of devolved power's.....

What would you do about the natural backlash from the established devolved government's and the people the represent?

Westminster/England would be seen as a bullying Dog wagging the tail and no Welshman, Irishman or Scotsman or women would take kindly to an overpowering England/Westminster and your thoughts if carried out would lead to the breakup of the UK for sure.

A Federal UK or more devolved power's for the three smaller country's, to elect and run there country and elect the government of each individual country's desire and not have a Westminster/English government imposed on what after all should be a Union of Equals and not a bullying superpower England/Westminster.

The UK as a united four nation's are withdrawing from the EU as we feel it is a bullying superpower and we want control over our laws, border's and direction we go as a Union of four Equals.

England/Westminster is one and the same as the bullying super power that the EU has become and dragging country's in many directions against the will off each individual nations citizens......

England/Westminster must be careful if it does not want to break the Union between the four nation's who make up the UK.

England's Empire days are over and must accept a new way forward as a Union of Equals or give more devolved power's.

As I said the genie is out the bottle and your vision of withdrawing devolved power's are and excuse me for saying it but they are Flight's of Fancy rather than a practical way forward to bound the four nation's that make up the UK.

A new Union of more Equal partner's is the only way forward.
Peter C
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: Supreme Court decision on Brexit article 50

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John K

I negated to address your final say on Devolution.

You said......

"Devolution = Chaos= Mismanagement=Financial Waste & Corruption. "

I would also add that any one country in any Union with a vast amount of power and influence our smaller country's within any Union the following applies......

“Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority; still more when you superadd the tendency of the certainty of corruption by authority.” “Despotic power is always accompanied by corruption of morality.”
Peter C
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