June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

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Peter. C Peter. C
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June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

So here we are at Brexit referendum part II.

Theresa May was a fence sitter during the leadup to Brexit referendum.

Can this be her way in showing her true hand, that being a Remainer or has she called this just right.......

She has Labour on the rope's is this Jeremy Corbyn final Knockout punch from a very shroud Theresa May?

I find myself in a rather awkward position of not having an alternative party to vote for and having only a Tory party that can deliver my preferred Brexit outcome and get us unhitched from the EU.

Labour are so weak i can't vote for them.

SNP do not represent my views on leaving the EU nor do they represent my view on what independence means as it is not unhitching Scotland from rUK only to be subservient to the other Undemocratic  Union in Brussels.

Libdem's are utterly being opportunistic by trying to gain votes back by making this Brexit independence part II...... which I find wholeheartedly Undemocratic!!!!

Haven said that, if the millions who voted to remain in the Undemocratic EU use their vote to vote libdem we could see a libdem government!!

UKIP would be a wasted voted by me or anyone planning to vote UKIP as it weakened the chances of a clean Exit from the EU.

This leaves me voting Tory for the very first time in my 60 years.

How will you be voting??
Peter C
David A David A
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

She's doing absolutely the right thing, Peter! Let the people of Britain decide!

Just this minute posted this on The Times

Mr D Akenhead 7 minutes ago
This lady improves in my estimation every day. The message is clear: If you want to stay, vote for the perpetual losers, Lib Dem, but if you want to do the right thing vote Conservative! I hope you are listening, Nicola Sturgeon, I look forward to a massive Tory revival north of the border and a vastly reduced SNP! I also look forward to the annihilation of the Labour Party!
David A
David A David A
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

In reply to this post by Peter. C
You, and many like you, on The Times today! This is too vital an issue for all of us, our children too! I note Sterling is swinging upwards today, and Euro seems uncertain, to put it mildly!
David A
Mary S Mary S
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

In reply to this post by Peter. C
Hi Peter,
I won't be voting Tory that's for sure. I want the NHS to continue and do not want anymore public services privatised and crushed. Brexit will happen so that won't effect my vote. I can't bear the thought of of another 5 years of Tory rule - this election will not effect the 5yr rule on parliaments and the thought this lot being in power until 2022 sickens me. I shall vote Labour as they stand for everything I believe in - less power to the wealthy, money spent on health, education and infrastructure. I simply don't think the deficit makes a difference at all - we are so much in debt spending more will not make a difference and small government makes the debt greater not smaller. Spending creates money! I can't bear the thought of privatisation of the NHS which is what will and is happening - Thatcher destroyed this country's economics with her moniterism and free market thinking -  it caused the crash - encouraging people to live above their means and banks playing God and the creation of the city gambling monster - a further 5 yrs of the Tories, Peter - not for me! Remember the press are constantly trying to persuade us that Labour are a spent force - it is mainly a right wing press. I am appalled that you will vote Tory - I always thought you were a socialist through and through. David doesn't surprise me at all - he likes May and is obviously Tory - but you I thought not but obviously I am wrong.
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

Mary,

I can't and don't disagree with all you say.

However, Labour have not shown any positive direction or strategy on a Brexit.

While i am totally at one with all the positives about Labour you have highlighted and the negativity about Tories........ on this occasion my priority is cutting the UK from the Unelected and Undemocratic EU and as i said in my opening comments the SNP do not represent my views on the EU or Independence.

This is why on this occasion i will vote for the strongest Brexit party which is (like it or not) the Tory party.

I know it means another 5 years of Tory rule but as we have said and agreed in the past......
Labour are nowhere near to being able to knock the Tories of their perch yet.

We were going to have the Tories untill 2020 anyway and now we have a GE 2017 we will have the Tories until 2022 which is only two more years of pain to suffer then and it buys labour another two years to get its act together to be in a position to take down the Tories.

Jeremy Corbyn is a good and decent man and has the backing of the party membership but i don't see any movement up here in Scotland towards Labour again and in England it appears that labour are weakening badly.

So on this occasion i think its head over heart to get the best Brexit we can.

If Labour and Jeremy Corbyn were to come out with a really strong exist from the EU strategy this would win my loyalty and vote.

Labour voters need to play a slightly longer game or get as tough on leaving the EU and under Jeremy Corbyn it's not looking likely.

To win the war you sometimes need to lose a battle or two.

Labour shall be back and ready for 2022.
Peter C
Mary S Mary S
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

By 2022 the Tories will have destroyed the NHS and all our public services. I do not trust them with Brexit at all. The Labour Party will stick with Brexit whatever happens but the Tories will do whatever is good for them and their city pals.  You have always agreed that the Tories are a disaster in general but obviously you don't now.  I will fight every inch of the way to get Labour into power and can't wait until 2022 overseeing the destruction of our economy [what's left of it] and a Brexit that I am not convinced will be any better with May and her minions fronting it - think about it. Fox [decidedly dodgy] Johnson - [the buffoon with his credibility going down the tubes] possibly Davis may have the drive although lacks charisma. The  thought of it continues to make my stomach churn - and I was a leaver! May was a remainer and I can't forget that and the fact that she constantly bangs on about leaving without a deal - stupid woman.  I would always go for a hard Brexit - it was what I consciously voted for - leaving the lot but May having the ability to negotiate any better than Kier Starmer or anyone else I can think of - I think not. She is a Tory through and through as are her cabinet - not one has any regard for equality or enriching everyone's lives - they are callous and uncaring and will not spend a penny in spite of their bragging about the economy growing - they lie, cheat and do not care about the average man in the street, and Peter you are going to vote for them. I would rather spoil the paper!
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

Mary

We have the local elections coming up in a couple of weeks, this will give us all a clear indication whether Labour under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership is appealing to the general public outside the membership.

If labour falls further into the abyss, then what chance will labour have with Jeremy Corbyn at the helm on June 8th 2017.

What then for our NHS?

We should remind ourselves that labour under Tony Blair did as much if not more than the Tories on privatisation of the NHS.

Tony Blair was seen as Labour's saviour, i see him as the architect of is demise.

It saddens me a lot to say but Jeremy Corbyn does not appear to be the man that can pull it together again and bring the general public along with him.
Peter C
Mary S Mary S
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

Blair was a Tory light - he did use private health care and he is a war criminal in my opinion. He did however spend money in public services and did improve health care but I do not want another Blairite Labour Party. I do not want a Tory party in government either. I do not hold out much hope for Jeremy Corbyn as the press will do their very best to destroy any chance he may have to get into power and no doubt you are correct about the local elections.  It will not stop me trying to change the minds of people - I will never give up and will never vote Tory however bad Corbyn's chances look.He is decent honest man and a good socialist and that is good enough for my vote, if I get the chance to vote Labour which is unlikely where I live so I will spoil the paper! The Tories do not offer me an acceptable alternative, least of all the current Tory party! Corbyn is not Blair and he is not a Tory light either, he is a good man unlike so many of our politicians today - they have vested interests and are self serving, self aggrandising and arrogant and I don't think that Jeremy Corbyn is cut from that cloth - I will support his cause all day as I truly believe we need a more equal and caring society - which the Tory party cannot offer.

John Kelly John Kelly
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

In reply to this post by Mary S
Mary,

The NHS has been doomed to fail ever since it was introduced, the reason? That it was not safeguarded against misuse, it was not protected against underfunding and that a decision was made some years ago to give preference to recruiting foreign nurses and doctors over British candidates indeed nurses training places have been deliberately closed in order to recruit fully trained staff from abroad who will be cheaper for the NHS to employ.
British nurses can dramatically increase their earnings by emigrating to the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, indeed a radiographer could actually double their UK wage by leaving the NHS and working for a private hospital in Western Australia ( 90,000-115,000 $Australian) for 4 days a week( days only),  instead of 6 days a week over a rotating 3 shift system. Australia does not have a NHS system, medical outcomes are as good and very often better the those for NHS patients in the UK, waiting  times are much shorter, Aussies only pay for their own healthcare.
Mary S Mary S
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

Our healthcare is fairly inexpensive to run - having been to Australia, Canada and  NZ as well as many other countries and realise what a fantastic NHS we have in the UK. Public healthcare running alongside insurance based services does not cater for everyone - I do not wish to see our NHS fall into private hands. I would not want to operate a two tier system which are fast approaching, as this government wants to run the NHS down in order to sell it off. Those without the financial ability always miss out, which as you well know, since we sit on different sides of the political spectrum, is totally against my principles.  The NHS with its equipment, property and staff is worth an absolute fortune and the vultures are circling. If you like private healthcare and can afford it you are extremely lucky - I am not able to do so. I recently had the misfortune to have an operation via the NHS in a private hospital and it was appalling. The surgeon and theatre staff were great but the nursing care was a disgrace except for an Italian male nurse and and English NHS nurse. Long may the NHS live and it is about time successive governments stopped messing it about.Lansley's incomprehensible plans cost unnecessary millions. There are now more managers than ever before - we need a properly funded NHS and I would be willing to pay more tax in order to get one. It seems many agree with me but when it comes down to paying and voting to do so many bottle out as they are greedy and stupid. Taxes should pay for public services and not unnecessary expenditure like HS2 and the London garden bridge [Johnson's vanity project]. I don't think the NHS was doomed from the start. It saved my life when I was 6 yrs old, it saved my father's life from a heart attack and my husband from an RTA and other family members and friends have all benefitted from the NHS.  We have all benefitted from this organisation and it has been mostly successful and was never doomed in spite of some abuse which can easily be stopped.If British nurses and doctors wish to train here and then bugger off to the new world they should repay their all training expenses and further compensation. I would never take that choice away from anyone, they are free to do so. Having been a nurse I am fully aware of just how hard the work is and I personally would not want to live in Australia, Canada, the US or NZ, my work was in the UK where I trained and always worked, until I retired. They will find that the wages are double in Australia and NZ but the cost of living is double too - it is not the serendipity that they may imagine.
I will, with respect, never agree with you, I am politically in a different camp and never the twain shall meet.
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

In reply to this post by Mary S
Mary

Again i agree with what you say about Tony Blair (War Criminal) and all your socialist policies.

The problem that faces traditional socialist policies is that many traditional Labour/Socialist have bought in to choice.

The choice to buy their homes, put their children to private schools etc etc and yes it was Maggie Thatcher (Old Crone) who split traditional Labour supporter's by offering choice and the offer of buying their homes at knock down prices, she basically appealed to their inner Greed and turned working class against each other.

Labour has an mountain to climb to break the me, me, me in their traditional voter's and i would say it is a mountain that has become insurmountable as people have got that look out for number one and traditional labour or socialist policies just does not appeal as they once did.
Peter C
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

In reply to this post by Mary S
On the NHS we have all needed or know someone who has needed and used the NHS.

The NHS has become a political football, which i find disgusting.

The nation's health should be out with political interference.

I would say that the NHS should have a percentage of GDP much the same as the 2% to NATO defence budget.
It may need higher percentage but it should have funding allocated​ regardless of which party is in government.

This would put an end to the NHS being a political football with each party trying to use the NHS as a bribe for our vote
Peter C
Mary S Mary S
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

Peter,
I agree it should not be a political football but when Hunt's agenda is privatisation,it will, and has become political. We should be spending a percentage of GDP on health - that is, of course, assuming we have a decent GDP - which we do not. Our economy is apparently growing according to the government but where is the evidence, I fail to see it and they are certainly not spending the money from 'growth' on public services. We should be spending money on health, it is an important and essential service in this country. I don't trust Hunt to maintain the NHS. or his colleagues in  the Tory party - it can't be anything else but political however distasteful. All politicians have made it so as they are very aware of the public interest and need for a health service. Most politicians will stoop to any device to get into power and it is up to the electorate to sort out the wheat from the chaff and my goodness there is a hell of lot of chaff!
As I said previously I will not be voting for the Tories  - I detest their policies, I detest the inequality arising from their policies and their treatment of the poor and less able - it is simply a matter of principle. John may support private health care but having travelled to the new world and seen it in action I would never support such an idea - those with money are always OK - those without are not.
Politics is distasteful and it was ever thus!
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

Mary

You said you would try to get as many people to support Jeremy Corbyn as you can, maybe you can help gain my vote back for Labour.

Up here in Scotland we here very little about Jeremy Corbyn's and labour policies and yes i could read his plans on any subject on his website but i have never seen, hear much from local labour camp up here in Scotland.

Maybe you can point out where he detail's his view's on exiting the EU.

I ask as this is the main point that will win my vote or maybe the information is not out in the public domain and may have to wait until labour publish a manifesto for GE June 8th 2017.

I agree there are many other reason to vote labour but this election for me is really all about getting out the EU and we all usually cast a vote for one particular or many reasons and on this occasion it's all about who is offering the best EU exit.
Peter C
Mary S Mary S
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

I await the Labour manifesto. Corbyn has always been a euro sceptic so he, no doubt, will continue the process of leaving the EU.  He will abide by the referendum vote and we will leave, but with the parliamentary checks and balances, that May would like to avoid. The SNP are just as socialist, apparently, as the current Labour Party and it seems that the Scots want to remain, so perhaps they will leave the Union and apply to join the EU in future - although there is no guarantee that Scotland will be accepted. I would not like Scotland to leave the union but if the majority wish to do so I doubt anyone can change their minds and Nicola Surgeon seems very popular and intent on pushing for another referendum.
I am very concerned about another 5yrs of this government for the reasons I have stated previously. I cannot bear the thought of another Thatcherite being in power for such a long time -it didn't take Thatcher long to wreck the economy and we are feeling the results to this day.  Cameron and Osborne squashed the recovery in 2010 and imposed a disgusting,unnecessary, austere system which is continuing to destroy the country. If they had pursued a Keynsian policy as the previous government had begun we would have had a quicker recovery, better tax receipts and possibly a healthier manufacturing industry. The fact that they reduced the size of government automatically negatively affected the economy - the Tories are obsessed with small government and we are definitely suffering as a consequence and with no apparent positive outcomes!  The deficit would also have been reduced although all this stuff about a deficit seems nonsensical now as we will never pay off the debt it is so large it is beyond comprehension almost to the point where it can be dismissed. Has it stopped lending, has it stopped spending and has it affected the wealthy - I would hazard the answer being - no.  It has affected the poor and made them even poorer - this is the result of Tory thinking - they have this false belief of trickle down which has been disproved since Thatcher when there was no trickle down but more inequality. As for leaving the EU I am not convinced May with her cold arrogant attitude, lacking in charm, persuasion or negotiating skills will do any better than a Corbyn government. I await the Labour manifesto with interest.
I suspect my arguments are not persuading you to vote differently - but I live in hope, Peter!
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

Mary,

It would not take much to alter my thinking on voting Labour as my thoughts on all you say are one and the same as you, however, it is getting a clear unequivocal message on what a Corbyn Brexit would be.
It would have to be to stop the free flow of people and to bring back sovereign powers where we control all matters here in the UK.......

Tony Blair (war criminal) who covertly opened the flood gates on immigration and Corbyn needs to put an end to this.

I am not against immigration, i want to control by points system and only for jobs that we cannot fill be the indigenous population already here, we just can not continue with a new city the size of Nottingham every year.

I listened to Corbyn this morning and i so want and wish him to be successful and if he can get the Brexit right he can have my vote.

As for the Scots wanting out the EU i think this time around people will vote to leave in higher numbers than in the referendum and Sturgeon is worried this might show on June 8th and if it does she loses her so-called mandate for Indyref2

The SNP have won my vote in the past but as i said they do not represent my views on what independence is as it's not leaving the rUK to be subservient to another Union and Brussels.
The SNP does not represent my views on Brexit neither.

At this time i want to remain with rUK and out out out the EU.

I look forward to hearing Labour's Brexit plans as this is what will get my vote
Peter C
Mary S Mary S
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

I agree with your points about immigration - I have no problem with immigration but we need a points system and people who are prepared to be part of our country and develop a loyalty - not those who have no intention of being part of our society and want to contribute. Hopefully the Labour Party will be sensible when it comes to immigration.
Blair opened the floodgates, cynically, to keep wages low and it has caused numerous problems with a usually tolerarant society becoming one that is becoming hatefully zenophobic. He needs to keep his dirty little nose out of politics now or face a court for war crimes along with Bush!
Corbyn's speech this morning was good and I agreed with everything he said - he spoke ultimately about more equality. The tax avoiders, the poorly run banks leaving us to pay for their mess, the NHS, homelessness, housing, education etc. - everything this government has screwed up. May cannot just use this election as a forum for Brexit alone it won't wash, although there will be votes cast in relation to it, there are so many other issues to consider. I really hope this woman comes unstuck - probably wishful thinking as the press will do their very best to undermine Corbyn as they are such a major part of the establishment and are afraid of anyone that will upset their cosy comfortable lives. They can all afford private healthcare, social care and private education, whereas most of us cannot.
I am not just considering Brexit, as it will happen one way or the other - I do want parliament to have a part in the decisions made on our behalf - we need the balance.  I don't trust May, Fox or Davies to come up with a decent outcome for the country - they are all died in the wool right wingers so I have no faith in them at all. Fox, in particular, has a chequered past and I simply do not trust him. I find him, as a previous GP, totally incomprehensible - deeply disturbing. I will be considering all the other pressing issues concerning our society and hopefully the focus on Brexit will not cloud peoples' thinking when voting.
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

Mary

Don't you find the fact that Jeremy Corbyn and Labour have not been much more vocal on what a Labour Brexit would be.

I say this as i recall Jeremy Corbyn saying after winning the second challenge to his leadership he said......

I am putting labour on a General Election footing.
He obviously hand in mind that we were heading for an early general election, yet he has not been more open and forceful on what a Labour Brexit would be like.

We are still awaiting for his manifesto now that an election has been called for.

Given he said last autumn that labour would be on a general election footing and still waiting on Labour's position on exiting the EU......

Talk about keeping your powered dry is an understatement!!
Peter C
Peter. C Peter. C
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

If you want to see a live TV debate between the leaders on this general election maybe this like is for you to sign.

https://www.change.org/p/theresa-may-we-deserve-a-debate-what-s-may-scared-of?recruiter=665326811&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink
Peter C
Mary S Mary S
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Re: June 8th 2017....... General Election or Brexit referendum part II

Peter,
Thanks for link - I would like to see a debate and I think May will be forced to take part in one - hopefully - I don't think she will do quite as well as she thinks! I have concerns about May's handling of Brexit at the best of times and I will listen intently to what Jeremy has to say. I still have more concerns about what is happening with Brexit and other government policies, which I won't re-iterate, as I have stated them previously. I do get information from change.org and have already signed the petition.
This has been a great debate and no doubt we will continue and hopefully I can persuade you to vote labour!
I think Jeremy is very wise to keep his powder dry and hopefully will come up with an pertinent policy on Brexit over the course of the next few weeks when the election debate hots up! He is focussing, at present, on all the other very important polices that this country needs to change asap! We need May and her morally bankrupt government out - it can't be soon enought for me!
I look forward to hearing from you again.
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