In Favour and Against

[Harold Bastow]

On this website we try to find a solution to our countries problems.We all agree that we have people amongst us who will always fiddle the benefit system and must be caught and punished.We argue amongst ourselves who should or should not qualify for these benefits.It nearly always seems that the genuine people are the losers.Amongst these genuine losers are our parents and grandparents,who were the foundation of this scheme to support the sick and the worse off.We should discuss the benefits and the failings of this wonderful scheme to support us in our need,so lets just see sence.The answer to our countries problems is our christian out look to people from all over the world.The hard truth is we cannot afford to donate millions of pounds around the world.We cannot continue to accept every one who arrives here as qualifying to the same priviliges as ourselves.This land of ours as had to fight to get back on its feet after two world wars and it was our parents and grandparents that did this fighting.They fought in these wars and returned to a country which had to be rebuilt.So the answer surely is that we first look after ourselves,then if there is anything left over concider the people who arrive and live off our charity.      

[Peter C]

Harold,

I have to say your plan and thoughts are 100% spot on, the problem yourself, myself and anyone else who agrees with you is........

With the present political parties their isn't a one who give a "Damn" about securing our boarders from the "Infestation" of immigrants, all political parties are preferring to keep the flood gate's wide open and allow this country to be over run with foreigners.

Politician's and all political parties have and are treating the "Indigenous" people with more and more contempt and throwing away our country that our father's & forefathers fought and died to keep this country free for us their Sons & Daughters.

The political class and system is full of "Corrupt" & "Self Serving" idiot's who think this country belongs to them.

[Peter C]

PS;

Our brave parents and grandparents and our young brave service men/women who have given their lives for this country get only words and platitudes like........

We will never forget those who gave the ultimate sacrifice their "Lives" to protect this country.
Those who survived were told they would "Come Home to a Land Fit for HERO'S!!

Yet every political party seem powerless or unwilling to look after our own people and those who survived the the great wars are being worst treat than the German pensioners who caused the two great wars.

A land. fit for HERO'S......... I think Not, these brave people survived and saved this country only to be cheated and conned in their later year's.

Look at our brave service men and women who fought Tony Blair's "Illegal" war in Iraq & Afghanistan, what was their Welcome Home & Thanks from the political classes who sent them to fight their war.

Thanks Boys here's your P45........ Your Fired and Oh by the way the country is Bankrupt and their are no Jobs for you lot, we have given all the jobs that were and are going to the F**king IMMIGRANTS!!!

What an utter disgrace "All" our political parties are and the worst thing is......

If they read my comments they would "Not Give a DAMN" and carry on without blinking an eye!!

[Darwin]

Harold,

I agree with what you say, but although stopping immigation and not handing out cash to other countries would be a welcomed improvement, it wouldn't even scrape the surface of our country's problems.

 

[Peter C]

Raven,

You said........

"I agree with what you say, but although stopping immigation and not handing out cash to other countries would be a welcomed improvement, it wouldn't even scrape the surface of our country's problems."

Here is a few facts to consider.........
 
Today, we spend £8.1 billion, which will increase to £11.4 billion in 2014 on overseas aid — a 34 per cent rise, despite spending cuts elsewhere.

Not such an insignificant amount per annum.

Then we have our contribution to the EU.....

Last time it was calculated, in 2008, the European Union was costing us £65 billion gross every year. That's about £1,000 each every year for every man, woman and child in the UK. It increases every year, so it will be a lot more now.

Not such an insignificant amount per annum.

Put them both together it is a saving to the UK of.........  £76.5 Billion per annum.

[The Oracle]

Vastly reducing overseas aid and immigration may not cure the Countries financial problems but we have to start somewhere and these are two of the most obvious places to reduce our expenditure.

[Harold Bastow]

The Oracle.
Thank you for your post in agreement.You at least realised I did not say my method was  100% answer to our countries financial problems,but it is a step in the right direction.  

[Peter C]

Oracle,

If the figures I gave above are correct at £76.5 billion we could save by getting out the EU & stopping overseas aid.

Our national deficit stands at £2311.6 billion this figure was taken from the following url.......

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/

"If" these figures are correct if we got out the EU & stop overseas aid we could pay off the national debts in 30 years approximately. It took us 65 years to pay down the national debt after the war and the the debt was 180% GDP back then.

Perhaps David A can enlighten us as to why there is such a rush to pay down the debts, since David knows the financial affairs much better than myself.

There would be no need for such "Draconian" cuts, it would still remain that we would have to get our own house in order during the next 30 year's.......

Create jobs first and foremost to cut the benefits to people unemployed is the place to start.

Then we need to look at the financial sector and get these banks/bankers reigned in so this can never happen again.

Then getting the welfare state back to what it was intended to be a "Fallback" and not a lifestyle choice. __________________________________________________________________

Below is where I got the national debt figures from the url link above.

"UK public sector net debt in March 2012 was £1022.5 billion, equivalent to 66.0 per cent of GDP – (note this excludes financial sector intervention.) Source: Office National Statistics publications[1] (page updated May 4th, 2012)

If all financial sector intervention is included (e.g. Royal Bank of Scotland, Lloyds), the Net debt was £2311.6 billion (147.3 per cent of GDP. This is known as the unadjusted measure of public sector net debt."

[Darwin]

Peter,

Totally agree with stopping foreign aid, but where do you get the figure of the UK paying in more than £65bn a year to the EU from.

According to the Guardian, our nett loss to the EU in 2010 was £8bn.
It wouldn't have gone up that much in 2 years.

In 2010 the UK paid in £14.7bn and we received back £6.7bn.

Follow the link below - it lists what all EU countries paid in and took out in 2010.
 
http:image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2012/01/26/EU27_Money.pdf

I know your figure states gross amount but it is still way off the mark.

[Peter C]

Raven,

I posted the url link where I got the figures in my earlier post however here it is again.......

http://www.democracymovementsurrey.co.uk/dyk_eucosts.html

Here is the information copied & pasted from the website ........

Annual Costs of EU Membership

The net cost of the EU budget to Britain is £28 billion pa*. But the actual cost - direct and indirect - is much more than that.

Last time it was calculated, in 2008, the European Union was costing us £65 billion gross every year. That's about £1,000 each every year for every man, woman and child in the UK. It increases every year, so it will be a lot more now.

* Source: Office for National Statistics "Pink Book"

The total gross cost to the UK of EU membership in 2008 they estimate at around £65,000,000,000* -including:

£28 billion for business to comply with EU regulations,

£17 billion of additional food costs resulting from the Common Agricultural Policy

£3.3 billion - the value of the catch lost when the Common Fisheries Policy let other countries fish in our territorial waters

£14.6 billion gross paid into the EU budget and other EU funds.

[Peter C]

Raven,

You have provoked me into looking for verification about the figures I got at the url link I posted and I have found that on UKIP website Nigel Farage is quoting it cost the UK tax payer £50,000,000 every day, with come to around 20 billion, if UKIP's figures is correct then my figures will be vastly out, however assuming UKIP have the correct figures then I would have to adjust the number of years to pay the deficit from around 30 years to 90 years.

Haven said that the other sources figures were gathered from......

* Source: Office for National Statistics "Pink Book"

[Darwin]

Peter,

Yes I can see where you get your figures from, but if you follow your url down it also says what our actual contribution is - £6.7bn. Conflicting numbers, so which ones are right?

The url goes on to say,

British households pay £440 a year to be an EU member ... but don't get it back

The average British household paid £440 to be a member of the European Union last year but received only £312 back in direct benefits, according to newly published Brussels accounts.

Bruno Waterfield in Brussels, Telegraph, 28 Sep 2010

 Spain is the only one of the top five contributors where the return is greater than the contribution Photo: Corbis The £128 loss for every household is because Britain’s share of the costs for running the EU are not matched by returned cash, which comes in the form of farm subsidies or social funds.

The lion’s share of spending goes to continental farmers and poorer countries such as Poland, the figures show.

Britain is the fifth highest contributor to the EU budget, with £6.7  billion, beaten by France, Germany, Italy and Spain. Poland contributes £2.4 billion. Each Briton pays £110 in contributions to the EU but loses out by £32 in benefits in return. Spain is the only one of the top five contributors where the return is greater than the contribution. In Poland, every person contributes £63 and gains £166 in return subsidies.

The EU’s cost to Britons in 2009 was up by £266 million, or £17.44 per household, as bills for running the Union continued to increase due to the rising costs of the new powers and institutions created by the Lisbon Treaty.

Britain has also been hit by a deal negotiated in 2005 by Tony Blair that has seen the value of an annual rebate from the EU, won by Margaret Thatcher in 1984, fall significantly over the past two years.

Nigel Farage, Ukip’s European leader, argued that the EU “club” was not worth belonging to when the cost of Brussels regulation was pushing up “membership fees”.

“If you were paying a £440-a-year subscription to a health club, you would expect to get fitter or you would leave,” he said.

[Peter C]

Raven,

I think you will find the figures I have given in my original post are "Direct and Indirect Costs of the EU

The figures you are quoting are direct payments for membership only!

If you read the figures below it is a break down to the added "Indirect" costs on top of our "Direct" payments.

Direct and Indirect Costs of the EU

Estimates of the true cost of the EU are difficult to come by. MPs have called many times for a cost-benefit analysis, to prove or disprove the benefits of membership. Successive Governments, both Labour and Conservative, have refused, on the grounds that the "benefits" are self-evident. In truth they are afraid of what such a study would show. The Bruges Group finally produced an authoritative study in 2008.

(http://www.brugesgroup.com/CostOfTheEU2008.pdf)

The  total grosscost to the UK of EU membership in 2008 they estimate at around £65,000,000,000* - including:

£28 billion for business to comply with EU regulations,

£17 billion of additional food costs resulting from the Common Agricultural Policy

£3.3 billion - the value of the catch lost when the Common Fisheries Policy let other countries fish in our territorial waters

£14.6 billion gross paid into the EU budget and other EU funds.

[Peter C]

A Challenge to the Government

If the HM Government really believed that membership of the European Union is economically beneficial to the UK then they would commission an independent cost-benefit analysis of membership. If they were confident of the outcome they would do so and be prepared to broadcast its findings from the rooftops in order to counter arguments against EU membership