For the love of my country

[Harold Bastow]

I have always loved my country and all it stands for,so I would like it to get on the road to recovery while I am alive.I have been lucky to see some of our achievements and met some wonderful people,but now I want to see immigration curb to the extent that there is work and homes for the British born whites.I would be willing to forfit any benefits that I recieve if I be assured that people from abroad would not recieve them also.We have a beautiful Island thanks to our past and present generations fighting for its excistance and the benefit schemes that they payed into all thier lives.We dont have the income to feed and house all of the world,its getting so we cant even support our own who have toiled and payed into this world famous benefits sheme that we have.Treat the world as it treats us.No free medical care,no payment for not working,no help with housing.We are talked about all over the world.We are also the fairest country in the world,why does every one want to live here,and even serve thier prison sentences here.We dont nead the Human Rights gang as every one gets a fair deal,if anything the immigrants getter a fairer deal than ourselves.I wish I could express myself as I feel,but althougth well edcucated the words and sentences will not come as I wish.I will leave it up to others to try and say what I really feel.  

[The Oracle]

Absolutely top notch Harold.

[a patriot]

Harold, I would vote for you to be the next prime minister  !!!  

[Darwin]

Harold,

You are so right on many things, but unfortunately most of them we have brought on ourselves.

Too many people within the UK population have become too greedy.
They want everything now.
They want to do as little as possible to get it.
Too many expect others to provide for them, and this is made easier for them by the swathes of people who tell them that are definately entitled to it.

No-one wants to do menial low paid jobs for reflective low paid wages, and this is where the floodgates opened up and the masses came over here to fill in the huge gaps we had in our job market. Unfortunately, and as you pointed out, this has also taken up a fair chunk of our housing stock.

Kids leave school and want a car at 17. They go out with £50 in their pocket for a night out, they're not intrested in low paid work, they'd rather sit at home with nothing than work all week for a low wage .... so guess who will do these jobs.

Yes we should stop giving out huge wads of cash to other countries in aid when there are people here who could do with it, but if we stopped giving out aid who we would we give most of it to ..... yes that's right, those who shouldn't be getting it over here either.

Yes we do have a beuatiful island ..... unfortunately we no longer have a population
that is a credit to it.

[The Oracle]

Raven, I agree with some of what you say but money that is currently given as overseas aid should in my opinion be used to provide better pay for the lowest paid. Unless the whole education system in this country is changed there will always be those who leave school at 16 and at present the minimum wage paid for 16/17 (£3.68 per hour) year olds is an insult as are the other bands of minimum wages(£4.98 for 18/20 year olds) and £6.08 for everybody else. I have worked all my life and have been fortunate enough not to have needed benefits but would not be happy to accept any job for £6.08 per hour. In order to reduce the amount of benefits people must be paid a "living" wage otherwise they need to be topped up with benefits. You refer to "menial" low paid jobs, well I'm sorry but I consider that some of these jobs i.e. cleaners, refuse collectors etc. (I assume these are the sort of jobs to which you refer) are as important as many higher paid jobs in that they are essential although probably less desireable and should therefore attract a premium rather than the lowest pay. I accept there will always be a minority who are happy not to work but I find it this constant tarring of everyone who is unemployed with the same brush frustrating. The lack of fairness in our society is the root of the problem, along with the enormous influx of immigrants who in many cases are producing large families once here, and putting unsunstainable pressure on our resources. The country has become one big melting pot!

[Peter C]

There can be "No" excuses for the vast amounts of money being given away to foreign country's.

There can be "No" excuses for the vast amounts of "Immigrants" arriving here in the UK putting strain on our benefits system, housing stock etc etc.

Oracle,
I fully support you in everything you have said, especially on the need for a "Living" wage not minimum wage.
I also agree that these so called "menial" jobs should attract a higher hour rate if pay, as you rightly say the refuge collectors, road sweepers, cleaners jobs are "Every" bit as important as the jobs that attract the top executive's, of course there should always be a higher rate the further up the food chain your position in the company.
If these so called "menial" jobs were to be paid at a higher rate then I believe people would soon put their bride in their pockets and would fight to get these "menial" jobs........
We also need those who look down their snouts on people doing these "menial" jobs and show them the respect due to those doing these jobs.

I have a friend that runs a cleaning company and he said he has never had such well dressed people arriving in almost new BMW cars for his staff. All down to those who would never dare think about doing cleaning jobs but when needs must, they don't mind earning a shilling doing work they would never normally dream of doing.

In my view, we should halt immigration and stop using excuses that our own people won't do jobs like the above mentioned, we need to make these so called "menial" jobs more attractive and better paid, then we would not need imported "cheap" labourers from outside the UK.

There is No Excuses why our own people could not do these "Menial" jobs all we need to do is make it more attractive financially and not "Stigmatise" those who do these ......

Very important Jobs!

[Darwin]

Oracle,

If paying unskilled workers more money is the answer, it should have been done over 50 years ago by those people who are complaining about it now. The influx of immigrants into the UK isn't a new thing, it has been going on since the 1960's and has been getting progressively worse ever since.

And guess who caused it and presided over most of it?

Yep .... you've got it ..... those people in our society who are now in their 70's and 80's .... the poor little sods that we are supposed to feel sorry for. These age groups have retired within the last 5-25 years so they were the prime working and voting population when most of the damage was done, when the culture of coming to the UK because we had become a soft touch really took bite.

But is this the popular view? .... No it is not.

Our aged population are looked on with nothing but compassion, sympathy, and extreme annoyance as to how they are treated, but the truth is ..... they caused most of it and now blame everyone but themselves for it.

Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer in looking after our old folk ( I will be one myself in a couple of years) but I don't like the way that our elderly are looked on as being something that we should be grateful for when they caused a lot of our problems. (please, no comments about the sacrifices during WW2 - they did it to save themselves, not us - we weren't even a twinkle in their eyes).

I'm sort of sorry if this all sounds blunt, but let's face it, none of it is untrue is it?

We should look after our elderly, but not because they deserve it, because most of them don't. They stood guard over our country and let it fall to bits. They had already handed it over to the foreigners before we came along.

We should do it because it is the right thing to do.

If any of my grandchildren looked me in the eye and said that it was my fault that they couldn't get a house or a job, I'd have to agree with them because like most people I have sat back and allowed it to continue, but whilst doing so, I will always remember the generations before me that not only started the uncontrollable immigaration gravy train, but also turned our simple welfare state into something that no other country on this planet has tried to emulate because everyone else knows it won't work because there isn't a country on this palnet that can afford to run it.

[Peter C]

Raven,

Your comments are very blunt and to the point however.........

You are 100% Wrong in every thing you blame on the ordinary man & woman in the street.

The young people off today are as "Powerless" as our "Elders" were in the past to prevent our political elite from running "Roughshod" over us mere mortals and "Dictating" what was in this country's best interest.

The ordinary man and woman had "Immigration" forced upon them by the "Political Elite" of their day.

I say to you Raven.......

Your comments totally "Dishonor" those who fought and died for our country at the "Will" of politicians who failed to prevent War.

You said ......

"Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer in looking after our old folk ( I will be one myself in a couple of years) but I don't like the way that our elderly are looked on as being something that we should be grateful for when they caused a lot of our problems. (please, no comments about the sacrifices during WW2 - they did it to save themselves, not us - we weren't even a twinkle in their eyes)."

Yes I agree they took what was there for the taking for themselves but don't ever forget we "all" benefited from their sacrifice and struggles to get what they fought for.

Let do what you say and not go on about the "Brave" hero's from WW2 ...... Let's talk about our Sons & Daughters who have been sent to fight in an "Illegal" wars on Iraq & Afghanistan for the "Political Elite" off recent times.......

Sent into a war without proper equipment to fight a war!
Paid on average just above minimum wage (£18,000) for standing taking Bullets & Bombs to fight politicians Wars!
Same young men & women being given their P45's before they have finished their last tour of duty!
Same young men & women being told your "Fired" and by the way there are No Jobs for you after fighting and sacrificing your existence.

Your Sir/Madam have just insulted every "Common" man & woman who served on WW1, WW2, and right up to present day Wars in Iraq & Afghanistan.

Do you even have an idea off those who fought in WW1 in the trenches and were forced to defend this country and if they did not climb out the trenches, they would be "Shot" for "Cowardice".

I cannot agree with your views in any thing other than the fact that our elders did what they did in fighting in the WW1 & WW2 as a duty to their sons & daughters and the freedom's we all have taken for granted, and yes they fought for our rights we take for granted today, better wages and conditions at work, benefits for the genuine unemployed as a "Fallback"....... I could go on & on.

What ordinary man & woman would not take advantage of any advantage they could gain after being forced to fight in these Wars.

I will restrain myself from using the language your comments truly make Mr feel, so I will end by saying.

You Sir/Madam "Disgrace" yourself by making these comments above.

I have read all your post here and you talk a lot off sense but this is beyond belief and any comprehension.

I can only conclude you have escaped from the Carstairs institute for the "Mentally Insane" by making the comments in your post above!!

[David A]

Raven,

I agree with Harold and Peter C 100% in this matter. Choice (lack of, or direct) and scapegoats are the two things which stand out in your excuse for an argument.

You are indeed a dark bird, who has decided that the carrion flesh he has just devoured and spat out is not to his taste. Perhaps, one day, when this bird becomes frail, he will discover that he can no longer taste, let alone devour, and that the world he lives in hasn't changed much, even if he has.

I will remind you of the origin of the word "scapegoat", something I recall, that Adolph Hitler was particularly keen on. Quoting from Chambers: "a goat on which, once a year, the Jewish high-priest symbolically laid the sins of the people, and which was then allowed to escape into the wilderness (Leviticus 16); someone who is made to bear or take the blame for the failings, or misdeeds of another"

Read and weep...

[Darwin]

Peter,

A wake up call on reality usually provokes such reactions.

It is people who use children as a justification for war that are monsters not me.

I fought for this country in the Falklands and in the 1st Iraq War. I was shot in the leg in the Falklands, and suffered multiple lacerations, a broken arm, and a broken pelvis in Iraq when I was blown twenty feet through the air and crashed through the windscreen of a support vehicle when a nearby landmine exploded, so don't lecture me on what it takes to fight for your country.
I did it for the same reason that everyone else who has fought for their country did it - I was ordered to, plain and simple.
When you are in the armed forces you obey orders, if you refuse to fight you get locked up. If conscription had been required, and believe me we came close to it in the Falklands, if any had refused they would have been locked up too, the same as it has always been. You fight or you are locked up.
All this stuff about men marching off to save their grandchildren and their great grandchildren has never been true or been relevant until way after the event. In fact you could say it is often improperly used as a retrospective justification for a war.

So you see ..... I do not dishonour anyone, but I don't like it when people make
others out to be something, or, they say they have done something when those people have not done what others say they have.
Men go to war because they are either ordered to, or they don't want to go to prison for cowardice, not because they are thinking about future generations that haven't been born or even thought of yet.

Even the poor troops who are out in Afghanistan now are not fighting for us.
The terrorist camps that they went out there to destroy are gone, the job was done in a few weeks. They did as they were ordered, but haven't been allowed to come home because they are still out there fighting for someone else.
They are fighting the Taliban on behalf of the Afghans, and many have sadly lost their lives doing it, but I have no doubt that when they all finally come home, the same old stuff about how they did it for us will do the rounds.

[Peter C]

Raven,

With due respect for your service and sacrifice for what ever your reasons were for fighting in these Wars.

Fact...... I certainly was not "Lecturing" you on "anything" this is a public forum and you expressed your views and I gave you my thought and views on your comments. Please do not accuse me of "Lecturing" you we had a "Frank" & "Blunt" exchange of "Opinions" that happened to clash.

Fact....... I certainly did not call you or make out you to be a monster. If you were referring to my comment about the Mental hospital "Carstairs" it was a comment made to highlight the strength of my "Disdain" at your comments.

Fact...... I did not use children as justification for "WAR" I made very clear that the cause of our forefathers being made to fight in WW1 & WW2 was due to "politicians" in capabilities to "Prevent" War!!!

Fact.... Those who did fight and gave their lives in WW1 & WW2 did so because they were forced to fight or face a bullet for cowardice, its very simplistic to say they did not do it for their sons & daughters, however if they did not fight those wars then we would be living under Nazis Germany rule and occupation.

You rightly stated that during the Falkland & Iraq war if you didn't fight you would be looked up, nothing compared to those who were shot dead not for cowardice but from being shell shocked and watching the slaughter of family and friends.

Raven you said.......

"All this stuff about men marching off to save their grandchildren and their great grandchildren has never been true or been relevant until way after the event. In fact you could say it is often improperly used as a retrospective justification for a war."

I would like to know how you can know what motivated millions of men and women to sign up and those who were conscripted into the wars.
I make no apology for saying you are "Reflecting" your own thought & opinions and using them to speak on behalf of people you never knew and certainly would never know what motivated them to fight, just as I could not say they fought for sons & daughters freedom's from Nazi Germany.

Neither You nor I can know exactly what motivated these people to fight in these wars.

However, regardless if your views on why they fought and died for or what my views are as to why the fought & died for.....

The one "Indisputable" Fact is, this country would have gone under Nazi Germany occupation and many more British civilians would have lost their lives and we "All" benefited from their stance regardless of their reasons and motivation to fight.

Therefore Raven my opinion about you haven "Disgraced" & "Dishonor" those who fought and those who died during WW1 & WW2........ Still Stands but then its only my "Opinion".

[David A]

Raven,

I have read your other posts and have concluded that you are not such a bad old bird after all, although you do tend to make some sweeping generalisations about certain "types" of people - hence my postings alerting you to the dangers of scapegoating. Whilst I accept your general view, that we, the post-war bulge babies, became the flower power generation who were rather spoilt and neglectful of responsibility, choosing rather to espouse the viewpoint of "hey, teacher, leave those kids alone" (like we were all child abusers or worse, being a teacher, myself), and that many of my generation can accept a degree of responsibility for the mess we find ourselves in, there is no truth that these ills were perpetrated by the majority of my generation, as you seem to imply. In fact, I would say, that many more of my age group are suffering needlessly today, as the result of the excesses of a selfish few. I say, that people like you, prepared to sacrifice their all for Queen and Country, should at least be rewarded with a retirement free of financial worry. Trouble is, in the future, nobody in this country may receive state handouts, if we become a Greece Mark 2, which may not be as far-fetched as it seems, thanks to the blindness of our leaders.

The way I look at the world is that we are all individuals born with varying degrees of goodness and evil, and I see the business of life is in coming to terms with our dark sides and promoting the good that lies in every one of us, and remembering that the future lies in the hands of our children, who deserve, not to be spoilt, but to be guided and encouraged to show kindness and responsibility to their neighbour, regardless of race, colour or creed. Such an ideal world can only exist if those who would desire to exploit for greed or power are brought to account for their injustices. If this Tory is beginning to sound like a revolutionary, it must indicate that something is indeed very rotten in the state of Denmark! (Hamlet)

[Darwin]

David,

I don't mind you being a Tory, I can't say that I'm their greatest supporter, but at least they are trying to put things right.

The thing is this, I don't like to look at the world through rose tinted glasses.

I don't mind if people have an opinion, that is their right the same as mine, but when open hypocrisy is displayed I do feel inclined to say so.

Some people have either short or selective memories, which I suppose is okay,
but they can't blame others when it is pointed out.

By the way, as an ex-serviceman I don't expect special treatment by way of a
retirement that is free from financial worry because all I did was my job, the same as everyone else has done in civvy street.

And I don't bad mouth ex-service people because I was one of them and was proud to be one of them. Yes they should be honoured, every last one of them, but it should be done for their bravery and courage, not because they somehow did us some kind of favour, because that is not why they fought.

[Peter C]

Raven,

You say......

"it should be done for their bravery and courage, not because they somehow did us some kind of favour, because that is not why they fought."

Once again you are speaking on behalf off every service personnel man & woman. How do you know what motivated them to Fight!!  You can only speak about your own reasons for fighting in these Wars!

There is not a person I know who honours our service personnel because they did anyone a "Favour", our service personnel have "Always" been honoured for the "Bravery" & "Courage".

You are now "insulting" Joe public by making out they see our service personnel as haven done us all a "Favour".

Who made you the spokesperson for why people serve and fight in wars.

I also done my stint in the forces, I won't go into details because I don't use my service days as giving me any more right to debate on this subject.

When I joined the forces it was because I did not have a great education and thought I would learn something in the forces, and yes you had to follow orders but I also saw my term in the forces as bring prepared to put myself in harm's way to protect those I loved back home and their freedom's.
I was young and naive that I was not fighting for those I loved back home it was fighting "politicians" wars because they were to cowardly to fight their own battle
.
However, it was also in hope that I would be securing the safety & well being for loved ones at home.

Where I was right or wrong in my thoughts back then that was what motivated myself and I know many others who felt the same way, as I am sure there was as many who thought like you.

My point to you is this.......

You can not talk like you are talking for every serves personnel, all you can do is talk about "Your" own feelings and views why you fought.

Just as you have "No" idea about those who fought in the world wars one & two, therefore you should express your "Own" views and refrain from speak on behalf of "All" service personnel.

[Peter C]

PS;

Actually you can speak on behalf of every personnel, however it weakens your thinking because you know you are portraying............

Your own thoughts and views and passing them off as to how others think, which you can not possibly know!

[Darwin]

Peter,

Bit tired of your gibberish on this one so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

When you've hadt to hide in a hole that you have scraped out of the ground with your bare hands, along with others, to shelter from the field guns and mortar shells that are raining down on you, and you've looked these men in the eyes, you know why they are doing it.

I can understand why you don't get the point.

[Peter C]

Raven,

As you say...... You are tired of my "gibberish" on this one, as I am totally as fed up with your Blah Blah Blah on your own "Opinions being past off as others!!

You said........

"When you've hadt to hide in a hole that you have scraped out of the ground with your bare hands, along with others, to shelter from the field guns and mortar shells that are raining down on you, and you've looked these men in the eyes, you know why they are doing it."

Once again you talk as if you are the only person who has had this experience, you know nothing about my service in the armed forces or what I witnessed, however you "assume" you can speak on behave of every armed forces personnel.

I will finish by saying two things.......

Some people are so "Pompous" and want to talk on behalf off others because the wrongly "assume" they were the only person on the battlefield.

I will agree to disagree with your "Pompous" ramblings!!